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Google Pays Female Workers Less Than Male Counterparts, Labor Department Says

wsj.com

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Re: Google Pays Female Workers Less Than Male Counterparts, Labor Department Says

#101

Post by malandrew »

At what point is a company responsible for discrepancies in pay due to behavioral differences that likely exist between genders. Most jobs have a salary range for each title and they present candidates an initial figure at the low end of that range. To get a figure at the top end of that range, the candidate needs to initiate negotiation and have the skills/experience/practice doing so, including the knowledge that they need to do things like talk about competing offers and avoid divulging their previous salary.

There is plenty of research showing negotiating differences between the sexes (including differences in negotiating based on the gender of the counterparties relative to one another).

Shouldn't the government instead compare discrepancies between initial offers for the same position instead of actual salary negotiated?

If they don't use initial offer, then the business needs to correct for this and every way I can think of to correct destroys the firm's ability to recruit the difficult candidates while still remaining competitive with other firms. The firms that correct for these differences will pay more on average for labor than its competitors and will likely lose out on the capable candidates that know their self worth and demand compensation that reflects that.

Re: Google Pays Female Workers Less Than Male Counterparts, Labor Department Says

#102

Post by jacquesm »

user5994461 wrote: post #93
CharlesW wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They usually retire from work mid-career for pregnancy and possibly for a much longer time to raise the child… No. Here's how it actually works in a modern family unit in a high-earning, dual-income Silicon Valley household: Mommy takes time off when babby is born, as does daddy because it's not 1960. At some point during this sabbatical help is hired, and then mommy and daddy go back to work and establish their ne…

Sabbaticals also hurt careers. You don't get a raise and a bonus for being away 1 year when you are 25-30. This affects negatively many future years of income, because your future prospects are affected by your current job.

Nobody argues that there is no cost associated with the choice to have kids.

Re: Google Pays Female Workers Less Than Male Counterparts, Labor Department Says

#103

Post by matt_wulfeck »

denzil_correa wrote: post #90
matt_wulfeck wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Clearly they've turned over at least some records before. They're making their case with 2015 data.

I don't think so. The lawsuit clearly mentions that Google denied access to data. In fact, Google attorney is on record saying that we denied access too.

Then what is the 2015 data mentioned in the article?

Re: Google Pays Female Workers Less Than Male Counterparts, Labor Department Says

#104

Post by malandrew »

Slaul wrote: post #76
snarf21 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't find the source but I read something recently that said that after controlling for position and experience the pay gap is around 7%. Off the cuff, I find that to match my intuition. If you could hire women engineers for 80% of the equivalent man, then all companies would wan't to hire every other companies women at 90% of equivalent because they would still be getting a deal and the women would get a big pay…

I make about 10% less than my co-worker. We were hired for the exact same position with the same amount of experience (hired out of school). I just did not negotiate as well as he did. I think trying to fully equalize pay (outside any obvious pay gap like women making 80% compared to men) across the board will remove the ability to negotiate.

Yup. I suspect if we remove the ability to negotiate such that everyone with the same title or at the same level gets paid equally that there will be an increase in the number of titles and levels to compensate. If that doesn't happen at the very least those candidates who believe they are worth more will not negotiate the salary but negotiate the title instead.

Re: Google Pays Female Workers Less Than Male Counterparts, Labor Department Says

#105

Post by CharlesW »

user5994461 wrote: post #93
CharlesW wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They usually retire from work mid-career for pregnancy and possibly for a much longer time to raise the child… No. Here's how it actually works in a modern family unit in a high-earning, dual-income Silicon Valley household: Mommy takes time off when babby is born, as does daddy because it's not 1960. At some point during this sabbatical help is hired, and then mommy and daddy go back to work and establish their ne…

Sabbaticals also hurt careers. You don't get a raise and a bonus for being away 1 year when you are 25-30. This affects negatively many future years of income, because your future prospects are affected by your current job.

> Sabbaticals also hurt careers.

I'm sure sabbaticals (and even vacations) hurt careers in some scenarios, at some companies. I was responding to the notion that this was "retirement", and unique to the woman.

> You don't get a raise and a bonus for being away 1 year when you are 25-30.

People take parental leave for weeks (6-8 is typical), not a year.

Re: Google Pays Female Workers Less Than Male Counterparts, Labor Department Says

#106

Post by davidf18 »

kgwgk wrote: post #35
davidf18 wrote: post #25

Assuming labor markets are liquid, if the pay gap is true it means either: 1. Women really want to work for Google and take less pay than working at other employers or 2. Women at almost all employers are receiving less money. There were times not too long ago when there were Jewish quotas. Nobelist Physicist Richard Feynman was denied entry into Columbia and he went to MIT instead. Nobelist Medicine & Physiology Aut…

> Any firm that pays women as much as men should be able to hire the competent women from Google. Only if that firm pays men and women more than Google pays (competent) women.

Does Google pay more than Apple, Amazon, Microsoft, Oracle, Facebook, ....?

Re: Google Pays Female Workers Less Than Male Counterparts, Labor Department Says

#107

Post by davidf18 »

Klinky wrote: post #47
davidf18 wrote: post #25

Assuming labor markets are liquid, if the pay gap is true it means either: 1. Women really want to work for Google and take less pay than working at other employers or 2. Women at almost all employers are receiving less money. There were times not too long ago when there were Jewish quotas. Nobelist Physicist Richard Feynman was denied entry into Columbia and he went to MIT instead. Nobelist Medicine & Physiology Aut…

Markets don't solve everything, especially institutionalized racism or gender inequality. It is a lazy solution to a very harmful problem.

Well, many would hire programmers /engineers/ lawyers/ doctors/ professors for competence regardless of race.

Re: Google Pays Female Workers Less Than Male Counterparts, Labor Department Says

#108

Post by Klinky »

davidf18 wrote: post #107
Klinky wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Markets don't solve everything, especially institutionalized racism or gender inequality. It is a lazy solution to a very harmful problem.

Well, many would hire programmers /engineers/ lawyers/ doctors/ professors for competence regardless of race.

In an era of slavery, many would not. In an era of Jim Crow and segregation, many would not. In the era of the 60s civil rights movement, many would not. In fact during those times a minority would hire for competence regardless of race.

Simply telling the discriminated to "go work somewhere else" is just encouraging those who discriminate, and is a lazy solution to a complex problem.

Re: Google Pays Female Workers Less Than Male Counterparts, Labor Department Says

#109

Post by dingaling »

jimmywanger wrote: post #52
hannob wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've heard that much (not all) of the aggregate gap (i.e., on the national level) goes away after controlling for those variables. The question you may ask here however is: Does it matter? I mean I agree that it matters from "getting the facts straight", but maybe not necessarily from the conclusions. If the pay gap is due to less experience, less education etc., then you're seeing effects of earlier discrimination…

> If the pay gap is due to less experience, less education etc., then you're seeing effects of earlier discrimination in society. No, it can also be due to interests/innate biological differences. Women firefighters/professional athletes would be paid less than males, all other things considered, because women generally have less strength and athletic ability than men do.

> Women firefighters/professional athletes would be paid less than males

Just a grammar note: the appropriate adjective in that clause is 'female', not 'women'.

Invert the genders: 'men firefighters'. Most readers would raise an eyebrow at that phrasing.

Re: Google Pays Female Workers Less Than Male Counterparts, Labor Department Says

#110

Post by eecks »

jacquesm wrote: post #12
eecks wrote: post #5

I can't wait to see Googles response. I have no idea why they would even open themselves up to this criticism when they could easily align the salaries.

Google already responded, they essentially claim there is no gap, that there was one in the past but that they worked very hard to close that gap. They also question the governments methods to arrive at their conclusions. Without data to back up either position debate is pretty much meaningless.

That's good to know. Not sure why I was downvoted for wanting to know Google's response.
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