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The Black Technologist Who Invented the First Internet Search Engine

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Re: The Black Technologist Who Invented the First Internet Search Engine

#101

Post by noobermin »

untog wrote: post #83
firstworldman wrote: post #42

HN is sometimes one of the more progressive wings of the geek community. It's disheartening to see the number of replies expressing dismay at race being an interesting and notable part of this story. Representation is a crucial concept in history and media, and a key element in why conversations about privilege are necessary. Rather than stating that you don't know why it would be relevant to mention the man's race,…

> HN is sometimes one of the more progressive wings of the geek community. I'll respectfully disagree with that. I think the rules set up in HN around both manual and automatic flagging mean that controversial stories quickly get buried, and only very straightforward, non-controversial articles get visibility. Many users think this is a positive feature. I'm deeply ambivalent about it, but have come to accept that HN…

Is this a controversial story? FFS it's about the first internet search engine. It is pretty on topic if anything on HN is.

You might be making a meta statement regarding other stories. Still this is pretty benign stuff.

Re: The Black Technologist Who Invented the First Internet Search Engine

#102

Post by djtriptych »

SolaceQuantum wrote: post #24
zeveb wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You might be surprised, but in the American context numerous people considered "black" for political reasons clearly have microscopic amounts of black admixture. E.g. Mr. Obama, who is actually half-white but considered black by American blacks and whites alike.

I knew a colleague who had a relative who knew Obama before he became a politician. Back then, Barack was far more embracing of himself as a mixed-race individual. He made a choice later on to be identified as a black man.

Another interpretation is that the choice was made for him.

Re: The Black Technologist Who Invented the First Internet Search Engine

#103

Post by erikbye »

Reading "black technologist" my first thoughts goes to some malicious figure in a science-fantasy novel, not the color of ones skin. What is next, "the yellow programmer"?

I'm so glad I don't define who I am based on my skin color. Is the color of your skin of any importance when we are talking about your achievements? If he was white, would making the first search engine be less remarkable?

Re: The Black Technologist Who Invented the First Internet Search Engine

#104

Post by untog »

noobermin wrote: post #101
untog wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> HN is sometimes one of the more progressive wings of the geek community. I'll respectfully disagree with that. I think the rules set up in HN around both manual and automatic flagging mean that controversial stories quickly get buried, and only very straightforward, non-controversial articles get visibility. Many users think this is a positive feature. I'm deeply ambivalent about it, but have come to accept that HN…

Is this a controversial story? FFS it's about the first internet search engine. It is pretty on topic if anything on HN is. You might be making a meta statement regarding other stories. Still this is pretty benign stuff.

I was making a comment about HN being a "progressive wing", not about this article.

Re: The Black Technologist Who Invented the First Internet Search Engine

#106

Post by kristianc »

firstworldman wrote: post #93
untog wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> HN is sometimes one of the more progressive wings of the geek community. I'll respectfully disagree with that. I think the rules set up in HN around both manual and automatic flagging mean that controversial stories quickly get buried, and only very straightforward, non-controversial articles get visibility. Many users think this is a positive feature. I'm deeply ambivalent about it, but have come to accept that HN…

Admittedly, I'm more of a lurker and slightly-more-than-occasional visitor, so my experience of HN is probably not representative of the norm. However, I have seen racism and other prejudice called out frequently enough that I felt justified in giving the community some credit. Perhaps more than it deserves. Sadly, can't help but look at the discussions happening here as vastly more enlightened when compared with the…

With respect - that's not what the OP is referring too. I'm sure if someone was being overtly racist they would be called out and banned. Most racists are smart enough to know that you're not going to get away with using a racial slur.

But power can be exercised in more subtle ways, including limiting what gets discussed in the first place or leaving comments like 'Thanks for not making it political' on threads about Haskell.

The flagging and downvoting of what I would call progressive but others would call 'political' themes falls under that category.

Re: The Black Technologist Who Invented the First Internet Search Engine

#107

Post by 08-15 »

kristianc wrote: post #63
tomp wrote: post #17

I don't understand why one would point out a person's race (unless it's relevant to the situaiton), but since the title did... I cannot fanthom how anyone could call this person "black". If anything, his complexion is similar to what US people call "hispanic" (although to me that's just southern European, not a distinct race).

And I don't understand why, with such alarming, metronomic regularity, is there always someone who pops up and says that race is a non-issue and that we shouldn't mention it. Or even in this case, that we shouldn't recognize his blackness. I mean really - would you go and tell him he wasn't black to his face because his skin wasn't dark enough? The guy's race matters because it's important that people from minorities…

> Or even in this case, that we shouldn't recognize his blackness.

What?! He isn't black!! Dammit, look at him, he isn't even brown, never mind black! There is no blackness to acknowledge.

> would you go and tell him he wasn't black to his face because his skin wasn't dark enough?

Yes, for fuck's sake, because that is what black means: very dark skin. Not having black ancestors, not being a citizen of a black country, not having a black passport, but HAVING (almost) BLACK SKIN. He isn't black.

Just to drive the point home in case you're a bit slow: black is a color. It is not a race. It is, has always been, and will always be a color. A color this guys skin doesn't have, not even approximately.

> people that look like them

Black people don't look like him. That's the whole point. He doesn't look black.

> two BAME people

I have no idea what that means, and I don't think it should mean anything. Seriously, get a life.

Re: The Black Technologist Who Invented the First Internet Search Engine

#108

Post by macintux »

noobermin wrote: post #82
macintux wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can probably count the number of dinner parties I've been to on one hand. The only one I remember is the one where, in the mid-90s, we discussed the fact that the web was wonderful but there was no way to find anything.

And you didn't sense a start-up opportunity and beat Sergey, Larry and friends to the table?

I only lacked a few things: a good idea, a workable skillset, a funding source, anything remotely construable as personal initiative...

Re: The Black Technologist Who Invented the First Internet Search Engine

#109

Post by dragonwriter »

tomp wrote: post #17

I don't understand why one would point out a person's race (unless it's relevant to the situaiton), but since the title did... I cannot fanthom how anyone could call this person "black". If anything, his complexion is similar to what US people call "hispanic" (although to me that's just southern European, not a distinct race).

"Black" as a racial label or identity is only tangentially connected with complexion (or even predominant ancestry, because cultural attitudes of race are shaped by history, including in the US specifically, the One Drop Rule [0].)

Effectively, racial labels and identities are more about ethnicity (that is shared cultural identity [on the identity side] or shared ascribed kind of "otherness" [from the imposed labelling side]) than biology (either phenotype and genotype), though the latter influences the former.

(And "hispanic" is explicitly an ethnic label/identity, which applies to people ranging from completely European descent to completely African descent to descent completely from the indigenous peoples of South and/or Central America, and every possible combination in between, as well as some others.)

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-drop_rule

Re: The Black Technologist Who Invented the First Internet Search Engine

#110

Post by dragonwriter »

firstworldman wrote: post #42

HN is sometimes one of the more progressive wings of the geek community. It's disheartening to see the number of replies expressing dismay at race being an interesting and notable part of this story. Representation is a crucial concept in history and media, and a key element in why conversations about privilege are necessary. Rather than stating that you don't know why it would be relevant to mention the man's race,…

> HN is sometimes one of the more progressive wings of the geek community.

Its really not, though it includes some member of the progressive segment of the community (as well as the diametrically opposite segment) and a moderation policy which suppresses neither, so it can sometimes appear to be either extremely progressive or extremely regressive (but mostly just a mix of both, and positions in between and off to the sides.)

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