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Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

nytimes.com

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Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#101

Post by dvdhnt »

applecore wrote: post #13
dvdhnt wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So UBI is fundamentally a safety-net; insurance, if you will. The "universal" quality is that all people will be eligible for UBI. Everyone will receive the difference between what they make and what UBI guarantees. It's sort of like the popular phrase in the U.S. - "everyone is guaranteed the same opportunity but not the same outcome". Thus, while all will have access to UBI, the payout will be determined by individ…

> Everyone will receive the difference between what they make and what UBI guarantees. This isn't UBI either. UBI would simply give everyone the same income without subtracting the difference for extra earned income. You could earn millions and still receive your basic income.

You're right, I'm thinking of GMI - Guaranteed Minimum Income - as I've seen the two spoken of interchangeably while that doesn't seem to be the case.

My fear when comparing the two would be that UBI would, over an extended period of time, put us right back where we started. I say this because UBI would essentially just be moving the starting point, $0/mo in this case, to say $2,000/mo, and that markets would eventually catch up to this resulting in hyper-inflation, i/e $25 gallons of milk.

However, since as wikipedia says, "most modern countries have some form of GMI", either I'm being too optimistic about GMI or too pessimistic about UBI. Then again, perhaps the issue evolves into one on taxation, loopholes, etc. since GMI exists and we're still discussing how to "fix" this issue.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guaranteed_minimum_income

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#102

Post by notahacker »

cwiggs wrote: post #70
kr7 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The choice does not have to be between "do a bad study" or "do no study at all". A proper study would be permanent and self-contained. Participants would need to give a portion of outside income to the program to simulate higher taxes and/or inflation.

You mention make the UBI be permanent so, how long would you expect to wait until the results would be worth looking at, an entire generation?

Results can start to be worthwhile early on. But the life-altering decisions people make over a two year period when guaranteed a subsidy that runs out at the end of those two years are not particularly likely to be the same as the life altering decisions people make over a two year period when guaranteed that subsidy for life.

(If you wanted to really understand all the dynamics, you'd probably want to wait more than a generation to understand how subsidy recipients' decisions to raise children are affected and whether those children make systematically different life choices.)

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#104

Post by snicky »

What's the evidence that results of such study could be generalized to the entire population? I mean, yeah, 2000 people seem like a big group, but one might have different ideas about what to do with free money if the society around stays exactly the same vs when everybody else is also entitled to UBI. When I'm unemployed and look around and see all my friends work I might feel quite ashamed of myself and willing to change, but if all of them "retire" at 30 instead this might not be exactly the case.

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#105

Post by oh_sigh »

komodo wrote: post #45
JackFr wrote: post #19

If its only going to jobless people, not UBI. This is not a meaningless distinction -- one of the features of UBI is that it is universal . If this just goes to unemployed people we cannot see the change in behavior with people who are earning close to their reservation wage. Do they stop working? This is streamlined rebranded welfare. Not a paradigm shift.

Why don't we do a basic income lottery? - Anyone except previous winners can enter. - You can only enter once per drawing. - As the pool increases the payout does not, only the number of winners. - Winners get a basic income for life. - As another condition they agree to an amount of monitoring so that we can effectively study how they behave with the basic income. - This one would be hard, but you might have to be m…

There are already lotteries that pay out $1k/week or something for life.

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#106

Post by taxtaker »

briandear wrote: post #88
dfraser992 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am reminded of an article I read years ago (sorry, no reference) about a low income family in Chicago (I think) during the Reagan era. The family had saved up a bit of money to send their kid to college, but some bureaucratic org found out. It was responsible for handling their benefits and because the total amount of assets the family had was over an acceptable limit, they cut out _all_ benefits to the family. Til…

Explain to me why my tax dollars should pay for other people again? I am not sure I understand why my labor must pay for others against my wishes. If I want to donate to charity, I will. Taxes should be used to pay for shared resources (roads, police, military,) but paying other people's living expenses? No thanks. America has poor and unemployed, yet Democrats seem to have no problem with illegal immigration which r…

> Explain to me why my tax dollars should pay for other people again?

Umm, because we don't want them to die? And society as a whole benefits from it?

> I am not sure I understand why my labor must pay for others against my wishes.

What gave you the idea you get to decide what taxes are used for?

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#107

Post by AnthonyMouse »

briandear wrote: post #99
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There could be a system where the benefits are lowered in proportion to the income earned from jobs The thing you are referring to is called taxes. The more money you make the more taxes you pay and there comes a point that you're paying more in taxes than the amount of the basic income. Phase outs are a pure scam. Their purpose is to conceal imposing higher marginal rates on low and middle income people so that hi…

What's wrong with equality? Everyone pays the same rate.

That is in fact the thing that a UBI allows you to do without compromising progressivity.

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#108

Post by haar »

chillingeffect wrote: post #89
haar wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately it's quite common due to the layered nature of unemployment benefits in the UK to be far better off on benefits than to go into work. I know several people who work the bare minimum to qualify for all their benefits then proceed to claim them for as long as possible. One example being if you have several children, working can easily reduce your child-tax credits by an amount greater than your employment…

my poor cousin got his disability slashed when he tried to work part time as a cashier just to get off his ass and be part of society. For many (bit not all), working at something is preferable bc it helps them feel responsible and social and to have a purpose. Just because he was half-blind, he didn't want to be stuck on the sidelines.

Oh, for sure. I think that is one of the most frustrating things about it. Those who receive e.g. disability benefits but _want_ to contribute are penalised for their efforts whilst simultaneously they can see those who don't contribute and simply play the system.

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#109

Post by samatman »

protomyth wrote: post #62
Already__Taken wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does that have any negatives that basic income doesn't? To me it sounds like a direct subset of that UBI aims to achieve. So a solid stepping stone towards it.

I support a prorated version, but the common criticism is that it's more open to fraud and harder to implement. I still think a prorated[1], guaranteed minimum income is better than a basic income. 1) something like reducing that payment by $0.50 per $1 earned as an example.

It's just an unnecessary wrinkle. Taxing earned income is the same as doing what you propose, but incurs higher coordination costs. Also, using your example, it's regressive taxation unless the base rate is higher than 50%.

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#110

Post by Mz »

Now, the Finnish government is exploring how to change that calculus, initiating an experiment in a form of social welfare: universal basic income. Early next year, the government plans to randomly select roughly 2,000 unemployed people — from white-collar coders to blue-collar construction workers. It will give them benefits automatically, absent bureaucratic hassle and minus penalties for amassing extra income.

The government is eager to see what happens next. Will more people pursue jobs or start businesses? How many will stop working and squander their money on vodka? Will those liberated from the time-sucking entanglements of the unemployment system use their freedom to gain education, setting themselves up for promising new careers? These areas of inquiry extend beyond economic policy, into the realm of human nature.

I am not a fan of the idea of universal basic income, but I would love to see the existing social safety net system get tweaked to be less retarded. I hope this experiment goes good places.

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