After the coup, Turkey turns against America • Hacker News Board

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#101

Post by ivansavz » Wed, Jul 20, 2016, 1:25 PM UTC

fit2rule wrote: post #17

steve19 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There publicly holding hands, and then there is accusing the US of plotting a coup. Between these two extremes is a vast middle ground they could occupy. If anything the government are fanning the flames, not the other way around. Shoot down a Russian plane and then months later accuse the USA of a plot while arresting thousands of judges ... I worry that this is all the start of something really, really terrible.

We've been in the middle of something really, really terrible, for rather a few decades, and are not really coherently dealing with it - in the 'royal we', as I personally can state my bit of it - very well. There is a big rush to try to get the world to peacefully co-exist, and technology is doing that. Seriously. At the head of all of the chaos of military action, is a technological breakthrough that cannot be weap…

What about free education for kids all over the world? (a standardized curriculum that avoids nationalism, that focusses on group work so students get to know ppl from other countries/cultures at a very early age)

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#102

Post by pluma » Wed, Jul 20, 2016, 1:25 PM UTC

emodendroket wrote: post #65

pluma wrote: post #6

Although from an outside perspective a military coup seems completely undemocratic the Turkish military has historically had the role of maintaining the principles Atatürk founded the Turkish Republic on. You can think of them as a built-in correction mechanism in case the government veers too far off course -- they remove the government, reset everything to start and then hand over control back to the people once th…

I mean, you could argue that maybe the military would be better, but a military coup of an elected leader doesn't just "seem" undemocratic; it is undemocratic by any reasonable standard.

True, but then it becomes a matter of contrasting the will of the "demos" with the ideals that need to be upheld to ensure the future well-being of the people.

There are very few actual democracies in existence today. There is a reason most democratic countries don't put every decision to a public vote and why there are often certain laws no government is allowed to change. You can agree or disagree with the priorities Atatürk set in place but from his point of view even an elected leader can become a traitor and enemy of the state and it's the duty of the military to stop him (because they are the only power not directly under the government's control and are able to resist with force if necessary unlike e.g. supreme court judges).

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#103

Post by vintermann » Wed, Jul 20, 2016, 1:26 PM UTC

pluma wrote: post #72

vintermann wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Karl Popper considered a government democratic if it could be replaced without violence, and while that's not exactly my definition, I think it's a good start - a bare minimum. A provision in the constitution for military coups doesn't excuse it. That just means the Turkish constitution is a bad one, that doesn't offer its citizens democracy. Handing over control to the people "once the situation is stable again" is…

Keep in mind those military coups have generally been relatively peaceful. Erdogan called the coup leaders a "junta" but that evokes the wrong images. The military is sworn to uphold the ideals of the Republic. The police is sworn to serve the government. The military has always tried to keep civilians out of the conflicts. As a German and knowing my country's history I think a violent escape hatch is always necessar…

"Both Germany and the US have something quite similar except they don't have a designated protector but instead put that duty on their citizens"

and that's a fricking huge difference. Speaking of the military's freedom to topple governments as a duty, as if it was a burden and not a pure power of privilege?

Imagine that the military fails in its "obligation" to topple governments. They let a government stay that should have been toppled. Will they pay? Will anyone punish them? Of course not. You say it "must be avoided if at all possible", but who gets to make that call? That's right, only the generals themselves.

But for the people it's completely different. They - we - have skin in the game, it's we who will suffer if a tyrannical government is allowed to stay. Which is why we, and only we, none of our high-minded "protectors" internal or external should have the final word on whether revolution might be "worth it".

> Unless the government, like Erdogan did, corrupted the military

You think that the default status of a military is to be uncorrupt. Interestingly enough, that is a mistake the US founders didn't make - although their opposition to standing armies has fallen by the wayside long ago.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#104

Post by denzil_correa » Wed, Jul 20, 2016, 1:26 PM UTC

Here are the actions taken by Erdogan lead AKP government after the coup [0]. Day by day, I find it difficult to believe this coup was not staged.

    300 Energy Ministry employees dismissed

    184 Customs Ministry employees dismissed

    8 top-level parliamentary executives removed

    All Turks require extra documentation to travel outside country

    86 Banking Regulation and Supervision Agency (BDDK) employees dismissed

    51 Borsa Istanbul (national stock exchange) employees dismissed

    245 Sports Ministry personnel suspended

    All Turkish academics banned from traveling abroad

    140 members of the Supreme Court and 48 members of the Council of State (the highest court) got arrest warrants 4 days ago, no info on releases etc.

    15,200 Ministry of Education personnel fired

    24 news/media outlets broadcast licenses withdrawn

    492 state religious personnel (Diyanet) removed

    21,000 private teachers licenses revoked

    393 personnel in Ministry of Family and Social Policy dismissed

    257 personnel at PM's office dismissed & ID's seized

    Demand for all 1,577 University Deans resignation

    30 governors of 99 fired

    9000 in Interior Ministry fired

    180 intelligence officials (MIT, Turkey's national intelligence agency) suspended

    2,745 judges dismissed

    3,000,000 civil servants banned from going on holiday

    Talks of reinstating the death penalty

    1,500 Finance Ministry officials suspended

    103 generals/admirals detained for questioning

[0] https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/4tq4sd/all_turki...

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#105

Post by pluma » Wed, Jul 20, 2016, 1:27 PM UTC

finid wrote: post #98

pluma wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Erdogan always had strong support from Turkish expatriates. I had always heard this explained as fundamentalists leaving Turkey because its secular laws were more restrictive (e.g. headscarfs are banned in universities[0] because of the strong separation of church and state) and Erdogan catering towards those fundamentalists. I don't know what changed in Turkey but it now seems that his support has grown not only out…

> I don't know whether he actually holds fundamentalist views himself... He does, actually. Google what he said about women.

You don't need to believe in religion to be a chauvinist, though.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#106

Post by jmngomes » Wed, Jul 20, 2016, 1:27 PM UTC

shabaan wrote: post #44

mtgx wrote: post #13

The question is, will America turn against Turkey, too, or are the threats to exclude them out of NATO just empty ones? It will also be interesting to see if the EU will condemn this "democratic regime" they were so quick to defend after the coup.

This is not an option for America. They stand at a disadvantage position due to their behaviour. THe inclirk aribase has 60 nuclear missiles which is cruicial for NATO to maintain its influence (a.k.a. hegemony) in the region.

Actually, most if not all of those bombs are considered obsolete/decomissioned [1] and aren't an actual first or second weapon of choice if someone decides that a nuke is needed. So these weapons are far from being "crucial for NATO"...

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jul/17/turkey-coup-...

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#107

Post by reitanqild » Wed, Jul 20, 2016, 1:27 PM UTC

shabaan wrote: post #80

emilsedgh wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its not just Erdogan. People of Turkey seem to be supporters of this path. Although its very sad.

Why would they (70%) not support him? - He increased their gdp - He reflects their view - He is merciful to the refugees (settled 2.2 million refugees) Why does he have to be pleasing to you? Why do you support hillary.. she killed millions.. Why do you support obama... yest 320 and today 124 (in idp school in syria) dead becasue of him Why do you support any damn politican in the west? All their pockets and morals a…

Is he merciful to the Kurds that helps fight IS or is he bombing them?

Is he trying to force Germany to punish a comedian?

Is he trying to reintroduce death penalty?

Has he purged more than 2000 judges? Is it reasonable to think he has verified that all of them were bad judges during the two-three last days?

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#108

Post by tremon » Wed, Jul 20, 2016, 1:27 PM UTC

ZanyProgrammer wrote: post #35

pluma wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's posturing. The US is an easy target because there's no chance in hell the US and Turkey will go to war and Turkey is irrelevant enough to the US (and important enough as an ally to NATO and Europe) that Erdogan can be sure there will be no consequences. Meanwhile the US's apathy can be exploited for publicity by Erdogan and he can put Europe in a tough spot. The coup wasn't a big threat. Only a fraction of the m…

"and important enough as an ally to NATO and Europe" I have to imagine at some point Europe will have had enough of Erdogan.

Europe will have to tolerate Erdogan until it starts reinvesting in its own military. Especially with the UK out of the picture, mainland Europe has very little military capability.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#109

Post by theGREENsuit » Wed, Jul 20, 2016, 1:28 PM UTC

dzmien wrote: post #54

Could someone paste the article to a paste bin, or instruct me on how to read the article for free? Evidently I've read too many articles on economist.com without a subscription, and they won't let me view this one without paying for it.

http://pastebin.com/VwepJ966

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#110

Post by random123456 » Wed, Jul 20, 2016, 1:28 PM UTC

Why Turkey is against US?

Simple: US started or participated in every war in last 50 years, so maybe they started coup in Turkey also?

US shows himself as a good guy, lawyer, builder, developer, savior and etc, etc. But in reality government of US (not people!) is war machine, as a bonus Hillary is a WARMACHINE (with big, bold letters)

So what do you expect from Turkey?

What US government loves: - torturing - oil - mass surveillance - killing innocent for the sake of their dual-faced democracy (even US government doesn't practice real democracy) - and many more

So what do you expect from other countries? Love? hell, no, what kind of love could be towards such shit guys.

I am only talking about US government not about people, I have lots of friends from there.