American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth • Hacker News Board

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#101

Post by MawNicker » Sat, Jun 18, 2016, 6:28 AM UTC

tbabb wrote: post #72

xivzgrev wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The unfairness component comes from your genetics and upbringing, both outside your control - some combinations are better suited to navigate this economy than others. So what do we as a society do with those at a disadvantage, sometimes severe (eg IQ below 90?) we can move toward finding ways to include them, or we can move toward excluding them. The problem from the article is a societal one trend toward exclusion,…

Someone who is personable or eager or hardworking (or the opposite) is as much so because of the cards they are dealt by nature or their upbringing as a person who is intelligent (or the opposite). When you get down to it, everyone is exclusively a product of their genes and the environment, and they are in control of neither. A just society judges and rewards people based on what they contribute. Racism, sexism, age…

I'm more concerned about the act of "judging". What does that involve exactly? I'm fine with giving everyone A, B, C, D and F grades. I wouldn't care if you made people sew them into their clothing. But I'd like a person who got an F to have food and shelter. I don't see how they'd ever get another grade otherwise.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#102

Post by smt88 » Sat, Jun 18, 2016, 6:35 AM UTC

mevile wrote: post #88

leakybit wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, your value is not based on your intelligence but on your ability to generate economic value.

Human worth is intrinsic and absolute. It depends on nothing and is granted simply for existing. It cannot be taken away. The commission of crimes will result in a loss of freedoms and rights, but not human worth. Economic value however is not meaningless. It represents a measure of contribution to the capital engine that powers our lives. The whole system however is completely unfair and biased since the actual econ…

> Economic value however is not meaningless. It represents a measure of contribution to the capital engine that powers our lives.

I think you need to define "economic value" here. GP, I believe, was referring to actual exchanges of money for value.

The problem is that lots of very important, valuable jobs aren't compensated accordingly. One could say that being a good parent is one of the most important and valuable jobs, but it pays very little. The same is true of teaching and scientific research. A huge amount of value (almost incalculable) is created for others, but the creator is able to capture very little of it.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#103

Post by selectron » Sat, Jun 18, 2016, 6:38 AM UTC

dopu wrote: post #52

selectron wrote: post #29

I don't have any problems with a society that is a meritocracy. This article is nonsense. If anyone wonders why so many people don't like political correctness just point them to this article.

Your comment adds nothing of worth to the discussion. So what if you don't see any problems with meritocracy? Explain why you feel that way.

The whole premise was based on the assumption that meritocracy is bad - my point is that this is a flawed assumption. The proposed solutions were the government could step in and "discourage hiring practices that arbitrarily and counterproductively weed out the less-well-IQ’ed." This is counter to science - it has been shown that intelligence is one of the best predictors of the quality of an employee. Why should the government subsidize stupid people, or interfere in companies hiring the best qualified employees anymore than it already does? The reality is smarter people are on average better employees, which is not at all surprising. This article is using politically correct logic, as opposed to actually correct logic.

A fundamental assumption of the article is that every person is of equal worth. Anyone who objects to this idea is labelled as racist or sexist or whatever-ist. But it is objectively just not true that people are all the same. A murderer is not equal to a doctor. Most people would choose to save a drowning doctor rather than a drowning murderer if forced to pick one. Similarly, if I a rational person had to choose between saving a drowning doctor who is an idiot or saving a drowning doctor who is a geniue, the rational person would save the smarter doctor.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#104

Post by teraformer » Sat, Jun 18, 2016, 6:39 AM UTC

In America, lots of excessively toxic, obnoxious bastards get much farther along in life than so many others by trading on unsophisticated deception, intimidation and betrayal, and not much else.

After a while, you get tired of being smart and getting nowhere for all the effort you expend.

Then, knowing what you know, and having noticed what's surrounded you for so long, well... intellectuals can decide for themselves a logical corollary to this.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#105

Post by smt88 » Sat, Jun 18, 2016, 6:42 AM UTC

PeterStuer wrote: post #99

As a non-American, and so 'judging' America only through the media, it does feel like the complete opposite. Deep ingrained anti-intellectualism, idolization of stupidity and love of the brazen and the rich. Scary decline of the sciences and rapid expansion of superstitions. Of course this does not apply to this here readership, but at least from an outside perspective we see 'idiocracy' surging onto the stage at bre…

Your assessments are not consistent with facts. You imply that the media is a distorting lens, but then you go on to espouse views that come entirely from the media. I'm not sure I understand that.

The US is becoming less religious, and it is the least religious it has ever been. People aren't increasingly idolizing stupidity or loving the rich, or Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders wouldn't have done as well as they did (both used anti-elite messaging). In fact, the on-going presidential election is proof that the rich are falling from grace. Occupy Wall Street, anti-"1%" sentiment, and a Democratic Socialist almost becoming the President are all indications that neoliberalism is dying in the US.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#106

Post by smt88 » Sat, Jun 18, 2016, 6:46 AM UTC

jackgavigan wrote: post #4

A meritoracy can reward qualities other than intelligence - integrity, talent, dedication, diligence, courage (both physical and moral), kindness, generosity, willingness to help others...

It's impossible to have a meritocracy because there's no objective way to decide what "merit" is. Even if you decide it's some of the qualities you mention, you can't accurately measure them. It's time to give up on the idea of meritocracy (either in society as a whole, or in a company).

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#107

Post by bjelkeman-again » Sat, Jun 18, 2016, 6:46 AM UTC

mevile wrote: post #88

leakybit wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, your value is not based on your intelligence but on your ability to generate economic value.

Human worth is intrinsic and absolute. It depends on nothing and is granted simply for existing. It cannot be taken away. The commission of crimes will result in a loss of freedoms and rights, but not human worth. Economic value however is not meaningless. It represents a measure of contribution to the capital engine that powers our lives. The whole system however is completely unfair and biased since the actual econ…

Additionally we have created a system where ownership of capital probably creates too much economic value relative to work. Which ends up centralising the capital, to the detriment of society.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#108

Post by danieltillett » Sat, Jun 18, 2016, 6:47 AM UTC

robg wrote: post #2

And gets it very, very wrong. "Intelligence" moves around with nutrition, stress, sleep, pollution. The brain is organic. We miss out on human potential in all the neighborhoods around the world that aren't safe and supported. The good news is we are headed in the right direction as a planet, but surprisingly this article doesn't mention it [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flynn_effect

The Flynn effect had stopped in most western countries including the USA.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#109

Post by danieltillett » Sat, Jun 18, 2016, 6:51 AM UTC

powera wrote: post #97

powera wrote: post #90

Was this article ghost written by Diana Moon Glampers? I disagree with basically every sentence in the article and don't even know where to begin.

OK, a few specific complaints: * The very first sentence is horribly misleading, as intelligence (among other things) was necessary to avoid dying in wars or starving to death before then. This describes every decade in human history before the 20th century. * It also only applied to white men in the US (or Western countries) in the 50s. African Americans, women, people in India surely feel differently about how the…

Duke power only bans IQ tests if you can't show a correlation between job performance and IQ. If you want to use IQ tests you just need to do the studies that show that IQ is an important factor for the position you are hiring for.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#110

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Jun 18, 2016, 6:56 AM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #84

Anti-intellectualism runs deep in American society. Consider the words nerd, wonk, geek, brainiac, college boy, the negative Hollywood stereotypes, etc. The Big Bang Theory is the latest incarnation of that. My father learned to keep his book collection out of the living room.

[deleted]