Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese • Hacker News Board

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#101

Post by sbardle » Wed, Jun 01, 2016, 1:41 PM UTC

iofj wrote: post #82

iSnow wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a lot of countries - Germany, Britain, France to be sure - the pub is such a third place, especially for men. Their special culture seems to be in decline as well, but not as dramatically as churches.

Well the pub has several problems - social stigma for one, and not being free (and in fact being quite expensive 20/30 euros per evening is not much) And as you say pub attendance is down by a lot too.

I'm a member of CAMRA, the campaign for real ale. Every month they send out a magazine to members. On the front page is an article on the social benefits of having a regular local. On the back page are the member obituaries. Sadly, regularly drinking alcohol shortens your life pretty dramatically, unless you are incredibly disciplined with it.

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#102

Post by BEEdwards » Wed, Jun 01, 2016, 1:44 PM UTC

further_tech wrote: post #87

Sir_Cmpwn wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Great communities are a consequence of the chosen lifestyle and morality of religious people You don't give athiests and agnostics enough credit. Religion is not required for morals and community values.

At its core, Christians are defined by fraternity, equality, goodness, etc. Maybe some atheists also have these, but there's not a guarantee all act this way. IMO, before founding an "atheist church", I'd at least establish "secular values" and find a community around it. EDIT: I was called a "delusional idiot" for claiming Christians are defined by fraternity, equality, goodness. I'm referring to the SYSTEM OF VALUE…

You are a delusional idiot if you think thank somehow just going to church gives you a blanket "defined by fraternity, equality, goodness, etc."

christians have no problem being exclusionary assholes who punish people for existing.

IMO maybe christians should get their shit together before they start tying to convince people they are the only way to have good values.

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#103

Post by TheLilHipster » Wed, Jun 01, 2016, 1:45 PM UTC

I've been working corporate IT for 4 years now.

I'm quite attractive and analytically intelligent, but lack social and emotional intelligence (always been a loner due to childhood circumstances).

I feel alienated, I can't relate to others in this rat race. The constant dick waving and competition driven by social media, it's just such a turnoff.

Without motivation or passion for games like I used to, life feels empty. Suicide is my wholehearted plan when this company goes under, it just seems like the reasonable, logical end.

This rant is more of an anecdotal story, take from it what you will - in short, I can relate to this article.

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#104

Post by cableshaft » Wed, Jun 01, 2016, 1:47 PM UTC

irremediable wrote: post #75

tristor wrote: post #15

Another part of this I think that people don't really talk about is increased social isolation as a direct cause of Internet addiction and the rise of social media and online gaming. There is a term for this concept in Japan 'hikikomori', but it's just as true in the US. As someone who recently turned 30, yet has remained single most of my life despite my other successes, I see it very clearly. I grew up along with t…

I'm really unsure of this. I can completely believe it, but I can also believe it's completely incorrect. Maybe it turns out people checking their phone while they're with you is fine -- doesn't hurt social bonding in any way. Some of my shyer friends tell me it's actually helped them thrive in social situations. Whenever they get overwhelmed, they can take shelter with the phone for a bit.

Before a smartphone, it was a TV. People would turn on the TV and ignore each other just as much as they do now with smartphones, it's just smartphones has made it more portable.

That being said, as an introvert, I also agree that it helps me in social situations not to always have to be communicate with people.

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#105

Post by BEEdwards » Wed, Jun 01, 2016, 1:52 PM UTC

further_tech wrote: post #72

Startups cannot do a thing. Startups cannot change the fact people abandon their elderly parents. They'll just make it worse. Startups cannot make people less egotistical or make them think about the other. They'll just make it worse. Startups cannot take the existential anxiety and anger from you. They'll just make it worse.

WTF are you on?

In no way do I think startups are a panacea for the ailments of society, but you do realize that they are made up of people?

People can do all the things that you list and more.

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#106

Post by Spoom » Wed, Jun 01, 2016, 1:53 PM UTC

Sir_Cmpwn wrote: post #54

brightball wrote: post #35

A big part of this that's unpopular to discuss in current culture is people actively avoiding going to a church. Whether you actually donate and believe everything that is said isn't really a factor in whether or not you can show up every week, meet other people in your community, participate in events, be there for each other at during the hard times in life, have fun activities for your kids where you can meet othe…

Churches are definitely a great community resource, but I imagine that many people (myself included) don't want to be preached something we don't believe in every week even if it means losing out on those community benefits. I wonder if something else could be established, or even if such a thing as "athiest/agnostic churches" could be organized.

This is essentially me. My wife and her family are religious and go to church every Sunday, but when I tried going with her earlier in our relationship, I felt like a fraud (as I'm an agnostic). I liked that they did good things for the world. I liked that they helped their community. But I couldn't stand up and sing about Jesus when I really didn't feel the same faith that the other members ostensibly felt.

I've heard good things about Unitarian Universalist churches.

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#107

Post by jlj » Wed, Jun 01, 2016, 1:55 PM UTC

brightball wrote: post #35

A big part of this that's unpopular to discuss in current culture is people actively avoiding going to a church. Whether you actually donate and believe everything that is said isn't really a factor in whether or not you can show up every week, meet other people in your community, participate in events, be there for each other at during the hard times in life, have fun activities for your kids where you can meet othe…

Japan and the US are also known for workaholism. Idolizing work and career for one's entire adult life can leave someone feeling very lonely upon retirement. Or while still in the workforce for that matter.

A good book called "Counterfeit Gods" by Timothy Keller explores this and other topics from a Christian perspective.

His argument is that work and many other things in life are inherently good and part of our purpose as humans, but not when they consume us. Idolotry is what happens when a "good" thing becomes the "ultimate" and it corrupts who we are at the core.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/she-the-people/wp/2014/...

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#108

Post by baron816 » Wed, Jun 01, 2016, 1:57 PM UTC

cousin_it wrote: post #99

baron816 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know for sure if it's possible to use an app to help those kinds of people, but I honestly believe that it doesn't take much more than a comfortable environment and convenient access to people to bring them together. I'm at least giving it a shot.

Bringing depressed people together doesn't help them. They need attention from non-depressed people, who abandoned them for the freedom of modernity. Solving this problem won't be win-win, so a startup won't help. Just like you can't make a startup to redistribute money from rich people to poor people. It's a task for charity or government.

I'm not aiming to bring depressed people together. I'm aiming to bring people together, depressed or not.

I think no matter who you are, going from a situation where you know no or few people who live close to you, to one where you suddenly know and have access to people who are within walking distance would make a huge difference on your life. Will that solve all of a depressed person's problems? I don't know, but I think it could go a long way towards helping them. Access, in my opinion, is the main issue here. That's what I'm working on.

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#109

Post by kaybe » Wed, Jun 01, 2016, 2:02 PM UTC

iSnow wrote: post #78

rebeccaskinner wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think in a lot of places churches have served as a defactor "third place" ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place ) for communities. It seems like the decline in church attendance mirrors the decline in a lot of third place spaces. None of my grandparents ever attended church with any regularity, but I know that they were all involved in various social and community activities with the types of clubs that don't…

In a lot of countries - Germany, Britain, France to be sure - the pub is such a third place, especially for men. Their special culture seems to be in decline as well, but not as dramatically as churches.

How about sports clubs? I find myself connected fairly well there, and there also is an interregional network with international workshops.

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#110

Post by VLM » Wed, Jun 01, 2016, 2:04 PM UTC

euroclydon wrote: post #62

brightball wrote: post #35

A big part of this that's unpopular to discuss in current culture is people actively avoiding going to a church. Whether you actually donate and believe everything that is said isn't really a factor in whether or not you can show up every week, meet other people in your community, participate in events, be there for each other at during the hard times in life, have fun activities for your kids where you can meet othe…

Not sharing orthodox beliefs may not be an impediment to joining and participating, as you say, but it will be a dividing factor over time, unless you 1) fake it, or 2) go to a liberal church. The problem with liberal churches is they're small and don't grow. People are attracted to confidence, so when the preacher, members and staff continuously and confidently proclaim their certainty in that which is difficult to…

"The problem with liberal churches is they're small and don't grow."

Hmm I've actually been to Catholic Mass where the congregation is exclusively white haired and the local prosperity gospel rock music church where the average congregation age must have only been 25. You can guess the long term demographic result.

I'll throw out a dissenting opinion to the majority view that only non-mainline churches are possible. I met a very cool Catholic priest who had a long entertaining presentation along the lines of if you can't stand one guy on TV or can't stand one guy at your local Catholic church, that's OK because there's a billion of them and if you can't find one part per billion that offends you, you're not paying enough attention, and if you can't avoid that one part per billion, you're just complaining for fun and are not trying hard enough.