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Where the Middle Class Is Shrinking

nytimes.com

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Re: Where the Middle Class Is Shrinking

#101

Post by ArkyBeagle »

sixtypoundhound wrote: post #55

Ugh - while I agree with the conclusion, the statistical definitions here don't have any connection with reality. $125,000 is "upper class", you say, regardless of location? Let's translate that into the real world, shall we? $125,000 Household Income.... Who makes it: - IT manager or Senior Dev with stay at home spouse - Mid-level Dev ($90K) married to a K-12 teacher ($40K) - Two junior software developers (co-habit…

Everybody who drives faster than you is crazy and everybody who drives slower is an idiot. ( George Carlin, I believe )

Everybody who makes more* than you is rich, and everybody who makes less* is poor. Same basic idea.

*say twice as much or half as much or something...

Re: Where the Middle Class Is Shrinking

#102

Post by lliamander »

thrownaway2424 wrote: post #32
nugget wrote: post #18

I used to think that science fiction's popular predictions of a dominant, out of touch urban ruling class casually oppressing subsistence level, serf-like rural populations was just a dystopian fantasy. But the older I get and the more I think about the future and human nature the more I think that may be the way we are headed.

The joke is that the rural people are oppressing themselves. "Urban elites" have long advocated for policies that would benefit the rural poor but the white rural poor are dead set against any policy that would also benefit black people. http://www.nber.org/papers/w17234 and http://www.amazon.com/Whats-Matter-Kansas-Conservatives-Amer... for more on that.

> The joke is that the rural people are oppressing themselves.

That's a bit smug[0].

>"Urban elites" have long advocated for policies that would benefit the rural poor but the white rural poor are dead set against any policy that would also benefit black people.

Certainly these urban elites could enact these beneficial policies for their (largely black) urban poor in their own cities without the interference of the white rural poor. How well is that working out?

[0]http://www.vox.com/2016/4/21/11451378/smug-american-liberali...

Re: Where the Middle Class Is Shrinking

#103

Post by odonnellryan »

sixtypoundhound wrote: post #55

Ugh - while I agree with the conclusion, the statistical definitions here don't have any connection with reality. $125,000 is "upper class", you say, regardless of location? Let's translate that into the real world, shall we? $125,000 Household Income.... Who makes it: - IT manager or Senior Dev with stay at home spouse - Mid-level Dev ($90K) married to a K-12 teacher ($40K) - Two junior software developers (co-habit…

> Northeast Coast, this is barely enough to buy a house (and I hope you like driving / riding the train for a few hours).

That's not true, I live outside Manhattan and you can buy a very nice house for $250,000. I'm not in NYC (New Jersey) but close to the city. Well, it's a condo, not a house.

Also, what's wrong with riding the train? More people should be riding the train.

> A better analysis would be to draw the line somewhere in the the $200,000 - $500,000 range

That's wild! No, that's approaching upper class.

> Sad to say, there are many areas of the country where living on $125,000 still definitely sucks.

Proof? I don't think this is true unless you have no idea how to manage your money.

I can't imagine a single place where it would suck to live on ~$7,000 take home pay a month...

Re: Where the Middle Class Is Shrinking

#104

Post by tostitos1979 »

dragonwriter wrote: post #84
douche wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That does give you a free-and-clear net income of 75k, which is better than a lot of households make before taxes and housing in other parts of the country.

Yeah, $75K is nearly 1.5 times median household income. So its substantially more than most households make.

Well .. 18.5K goes into the 401K, leaving 57K. Even if we saved 50% of what we earn, we'll barely be able to save 250K over a decade. Given the pace of house price increases, it seems like a hopeless situation :(

Re: Where the Middle Class Is Shrinking

#105

Post by xxpor »

zanny wrote: post #86
mancerayder wrote: post #58

That the income distribution is shrinking in the middle distribution of the population of the U.S. is a critical data trend with a number of unpleasant implications. From an ideological perspective, it damages the traditional worship of hard work and the idealization of middle class life. Idealistic visions (as reflected from the movies, the shows, the social policy of the era around the middle of the 20th century pr…

> "Ask HN: Which remote island can I escape to and live comfortably and cheaply?" This is really the fundamental problem in the modern world. The interconnectedness and shrinking of the globe in terms of distance means there is absolutely no where to escape to. Anywhere you would consider going there will be some government trying to dictate how you live your life and take a portion of your livelihood, and anywhere t…

>Anywhere you would consider going there will be some government trying to dictate how you live your life and take a portion of your livelihood, and anywhere that you might avoid that you are usually risking that in conjunction with a humvee full of armed militants storming your home and murdering you.

It's almost like the two are related!

Re: Where the Middle Class Is Shrinking

#106

Post by refurb »

astazangasta wrote: post #73
npalli wrote: post #63

I found the following graph from the same pew research pretty interesting. http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/files/2016/05/ST_2016.05.12_m... Essentially, the middle class shrank from 55% of the population in 2000 to 51% of the population in 2014. However, the upper class absorbed 3% (3/4th) of the shrinking middle class growing from 17% to 20% of the population, while the lower class absorbed only 1% (1/4th) of the shr…

Take this with a grain of salt. The definition of "middle income" is flexible. For example, in the Pew analysis "middle income" is defined as between $45,115-$135,346 in 2013-2014 dollars for the year 2000, but as between $41,641-$124,924 for the year 2014. Given this difference it's unsurprising the Pew analysis finds the upper class grew, but since the definition shifts we should be suspicious of the meaning of thi…

Why would it be unsurprising? The upper class income range went up, so it's actually even more surprising that of the 3% that went from the middle to the upper class they had a higher bar to reach.

Re: Where the Middle Class Is Shrinking

#107

Post by paulmd »

sixtypoundhound wrote: post #71
qsymmachus wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sad to say, there are many areas of the country where living on $125,000 still definitely sucks. Only by truly decadent standards could an income of $125,000 be said to "definitely suck". $125k is 2.4x median income and puts you in the 97th percentile of all American workers.

Attempting to answer the question a different way... I presented three fictional "couples" and their career choices that would easily get you to the $125,000 point in today's labor market. None of these pairing would be considered "highly compensated" or upper class. Middle class would be a more appropriate designation. With regards to the "suck" factor - try running a household in SF, LA, or NYC (with kids and spous…

What you are referring to is what the Wall Street Journal once called the "HENRYs" - High Earner, Not Rich Yet. Or in other words, "once I spend all of my money, I have nothing left!".

This is an argument that can be made at virtually any income level. Consider the following article and this really charming infographic they put together:

http://www.wsj.com/articles/six-figure-incomesand-facing-fin...

http://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/BF-AE118B_05WIc_G_...

(infographic from http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014241278873236896045782201...)

After all - $400k isn't really that much, after you've paid taxes and put away $22k per year for retirement and the kids' college, and after you're done spending $87k per year on a mortgage, $25k per year on property taxes, $40k per year on maintenance and utilities, $30k per year on groceries, $21k per year on dining out, $26k per year on vacations, $24k per year on car expenses, $12k on country club dues, $10k per year on children's sports, and $9k per year on gifts and donations. Why in fact you're $10k in the hole!

I don't quite know how to say this other than bluntly, but $125k is a long ways above median household income everywhere in the country. For comparison, the median household income for New York City is $50,711 and the median household income for the San Francisco Metro Area is $83,222. Most people live off less than $125k, don't pretend it's impossible. Expenses tend to find a way to encompass available income unless you make a deliberate effort to stop that - even for people making $400k per year.

$125k isn't "rich" in the sense that you could quit working and live off the income from your investments or commute every weekend from your villa in the Caribbean, but it's vastly more than most people will ever see, and it's enough to be totally financially secure _if you choose to be_.

This is really the distinction the article is getting at: some people use "lower/middle/upper" in the sense of income quantiles, other people use it in the sense of working-vs-rentier classes (i.e. proletariat-vs-bourgeois). But there's always been a group of HENRYs - Marx labelled them as the "petit bourgeois".

Re: Where the Middle Class Is Shrinking

#108

Post by odonnellryan »

dragonwriter wrote: post #84
douche wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That does give you a free-and-clear net income of 75k, which is better than a lot of households make before taxes and housing in other parts of the country.

Yeah, $75K is nearly 1.5 times median household income. So its substantially more than most households make.

Yeah. Making over $100k is not "roughing it." It's weird to see people say that.

Re: Where the Middle Class Is Shrinking

#109

Post by pyrrhotech »

bowmessage wrote: post #95
pyrrhotech wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Qualifying 125k as upper class is indicative of a gross misunderstanding of capitalism and wealth concentration. Upper class are business owners, old money heirs, celebrities and the like who find it odd that other people go into work 9-5 for 40 hours of their lives for 40 years. They are less than 1 percent of the population and have incomes from investments of generally over 500k/year and net worths of 10 million+.…

This scale is silly and meaningless.

That's because you and I have no idea what it's like to be part of the capitalist class. Perhaps studying the capitalist class is silly, but if we wanted to, this is an accurate description of it's members. Obviously 2-4 million isn't "poor" but it isn't quite capitalist class. More like upper-middle class saver. 10 million is entry level to capitalist class

Re: Where the Middle Class Is Shrinking

#110

Post by ArkyBeagle »

nugget wrote: post #18

I used to think that science fiction's popular predictions of a dominant, out of touch urban ruling class casually oppressing subsistence level, serf-like rural populations was just a dystopian fantasy. But the older I get and the more I think about the future and human nature the more I think that may be the way we are headed.

That's just warmed over Malthus.

There's another class of (more depressing, IMO) dystopias like "Blade Runner", where people are nothing more than grist for the mill in large hyper-metropolises.

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