Live data from Hacker News

Where the Middle Class Is Shrinking

nytimes.com

91–100 of 180 posts

Re: Where the Middle Class Is Shrinking

#91

Ugh - while I agree with the conclusion, the statistical definitions here don't have any connection with reality. $125,000 is "upper class", you say, regardless of location? Let's translate that into the real world, shall we? $125,000 Household Income.... Who makes it: - IT manager or Senior Dev with stay at home spouse - Mid-level Dev ($90K) married to a K-12 teacher ($40K) - Two junior software developers (co-habit…

Qualifying 125k as upper class is indicative of a gross misunderstanding of capitalism and wealth concentration. Upper class are business owners, old money heirs, celebrities and the like who find it odd that other people go into work 9-5 for 40 hours of their lives for 40 years. They are less than 1 percent of the population and have incomes from investments of generally over 500k/year and net worths of 10 million+.

This is a much more accurate description of the various levels of upper class from Economist Felix Dennis:

$2-4 million: The comfortable poor

$4-10 million: The comfortably off

$10-30 million: The comfortably wealthy

$30-80 million: The lesser rich

$80-150 million: The comfortably rich

$150-200 million: The rich

$200-400 million: The seriously rich

$400-800 million: The truly rich

$800 million - $1.998 billion: The filthy rich

$1.998 billion and Above: The super rich

citation: http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/blog/who-is-rich

Re: Where the Middle Class Is Shrinking

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every time there's an article like this, this exact comment gets trotted out. Phrases can have two meanings, that you can determine by context.

You shouldn't be down voted. Context matters an incredible amount in the English language. Plus, the US doesn't really have classes the way the OP is concerned "middle class" will be interpreted. I'd be surprised if anyone misses the point of this analysis either way.

As Wittgenstein might put it, there are two language games at play here. The first one takes 'class' as defined in the (legitimate) Marxist way, used to represent the relationship to the means of production (Edit: we don't produce all that much anymore, making that definition harder to parse). The second takes it to be specifically defined as a range of income distribution. That second one is what most people typically take to mean by 'class'.

While I agree there's a lot more than income at play in social policy and understanding of society and economics, it's still an absolutely fascinating set of stats to bring up. I will say I'm more disappointed by the huge ranges of the various distributions in the study (as pointed out by other commenters)

Re: Where the Middle Class Is Shrinking

#93

Ugh - while I agree with the conclusion, the statistical definitions here don't have any connection with reality. $125,000 is "upper class", you say, regardless of location? Let's translate that into the real world, shall we? $125,000 Household Income.... Who makes it: - IT manager or Senior Dev with stay at home spouse - Mid-level Dev ($90K) married to a K-12 teacher ($40K) - Two junior software developers (co-habit…

> Sad to say, there are many areas of the country where living on $125,000 still definitely sucks. Only by truly decadent standards could an income of $125,000 be said to "definitely suck". $125k is 2.4x median income and puts you in the 97th percentile of all American workers.

Yes, anyone attempting to say that living in a first world country on $125,000 "sucks" is open to this criticism. I'd probably avoid phrasing it this way.

However, I'm generally in agreement with the post. I live in a relatively unfashionable neighborhood south of 280 in SF. Dumping and graffiti are common, front easements (yards) are paved over for extra parking or broken down car storage (illegally, but with extremely indifferent enforcement). Local schools aren't highly ranked in terms of test scores (though this doesn't matter all that much in SF, which is run by lottery much to the chagrin of people who live in higher performing districts). It would be very, very difficult to buy into this neighborhood in SF on $125k a year. You'd have trouble buying for much under a mil. On two incomes you can, but keep in mind, child care runs about $25k per year per kid, and even with kids in SFUSD ("free"), you have to pay extra for after care and summer camps, which will run you about 10k per kid per year even if you're doing things relatively cheaply (YMCA or SF park and rec run programs). At "upper class" incomes, you will lose the tax break for these things, so the second spouse needs to make a substantial salary before things get better financially.

Does living here "suck" by global standards of poverty? No way, not even slightly. Is it the kind of "upper class" life you'd expect for a dual income household of highly educated and skilled workers living in ground zero for a severe labor shortage for wildly profitable companies?

San Francisco is wonky, but keep in mind, the companies that say that there is a severe shortage of workers often do demand that their workers live out here, so the $125k salary really should be considered in the context of SF or NY level housing prices.

Re: Where the Middle Class Is Shrinking

#94
post #8

Anyone able to offer an explaination of why having a large middle class is viewed as positive? For example, say large population was happy, educated, healthy, etc. - why does it matter what the class distribution is?

To go full-on Machiavellian for a second:

The middle class has enough material wealth to have "something to lose", but not enough material wealth to individually upset the status quo too much. On top of that, there are enough resources to go around to allow a large group of people have that same approximate level of wealth.

Ergo, the middle class is a tremendous stabilizing force in a society, and they're "guillotine insurance" for the rich.

Re: Where the Middle Class Is Shrinking

#95

Ugh - while I agree with the conclusion, the statistical definitions here don't have any connection with reality. $125,000 is "upper class", you say, regardless of location? Let's translate that into the real world, shall we? $125,000 Household Income.... Who makes it: - IT manager or Senior Dev with stay at home spouse - Mid-level Dev ($90K) married to a K-12 teacher ($40K) - Two junior software developers (co-habit…

Qualifying 125k as upper class is indicative of a gross misunderstanding of capitalism and wealth concentration. Upper class are business owners, old money heirs, celebrities and the like who find it odd that other people go into work 9-5 for 40 hours of their lives for 40 years. They are less than 1 percent of the population and have incomes from investments of generally over 500k/year and net worths of 10 million+.…

This scale is silly and meaningless.

Re: Where the Middle Class Is Shrinking

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the correction, my numbers must be older (or just wrong).

Or, the income rank among "American workers" (which you referred to) and that among "American households" (which the person "correcting" you referred to) is different. Which is not merely plausible, but expected.

Good point, I believe the 97th percentile is per capita, not per household.

Re: Where the Middle Class Is Shrinking

#97
post #28

I'm not quite understanding why the "Lower Class" trends seem to be so flat, while the middle income trends are down. Where are the middle income families going if not the lower income bracket?

One explanation is that for every "person" who leaves the middle class, one goes down a notch and two go up. I say "person" because these are aggregate measures so it's an abstraction of "person".

Example: in energy, technicians move up the scale and perform less physical labor than comparable (if even possible) workers thirty years ago.

The lower classes are hard up against relative diminishing returns on labor. A textile worker, say, still makes what they'd have made in the 1950s in absolute terms. This does not keep up with a general rising standard of living in the US but it works fine in PacRim countries - until it doesn't.

Re: Where the Middle Class Is Shrinking

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The joke is that the rural people are oppressing themselves. "Urban elites" have long advocated for policies that would benefit the rural poor but the white rural poor are dead set against any policy that would also benefit black people. http://www.nber.org/papers/w17234 and http://www.amazon.com/Whats-Matter-Kansas-Conservatives-Amer... for more on that.

There's a grain of truth to this, but it's a frankly smug attitude. It's a bit of a hand wave ("because racism") that allows urban elites like you and me to avoid asking what it is about _us_ and our politics that many white working class people find so repulsive.

So let's ask the question, then. What makes progressive social policies (ignoring loaded issues like reproductive options and gun control) so distasteful to some of those who would most benefit?

I'll provide a starting hypothesis for discussion's sake: maybe urban disdain for the suburban and rural lifestyles (exemplified by complaints about "subsidizing" rural areas) turns people off before they hear the good ideas?

An alternative hypothesis based on my own rural extended family: maybe one group decides based on what they are led to believe is practical or effective, while the other group decides based on what they are led to believe is "right" or moral, and the rhetoric of either side cannot penetrate the thought process of the other?

Re: Where the Middle Class Is Shrinking

#99

The article makes the extremely common media error (which is also present in the source research, or at least the press release from Pew announcing it -- the article uses "class" pretty exclusively, the Pew release uses "class" in the headline and much of the body, but also uses "income tier" in some places) of conflating income (which is simply a measure of the amount of money received per year) with class (which is…

That is a useless definition in terms of policy. We don't care which legal profession people have. We care about the value they produce and the pay they receive.

Class has vastly different meanings in the US or India etc. As long as the meaning was clear that should be enough for any reasonable person. Especially when it's a very common definition. Whining about it is little better than trolling.

PS: The original definition of middle class even included working class people. Working class people are not serfs and they are not aristocracy so by default they are middle class. As the US got rid of slavery, has no real aristocracy, and calling everyone middle class is pointless, so the more reasonable definition is based on income. It's even been used in that context for 100+ years.

Re: Where the Middle Class Is Shrinking

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every time there's an article like this, this exact comment gets trotted out. Phrases can have two meanings, that you can determine by context.

You shouldn't be down voted. Context matters an incredible amount in the English language. Plus, the US doesn't really have classes the way the OP is concerned "middle class" will be interpreted. I'd be surprised if anyone misses the point of this analysis either way.

> Plus, the US doesn't really have classes the way the OP is concerned "middle class" will be interpreted.

The US (like other mixed economies, which retain a basically capitalist system of property and overall structure, despite some public policy measures to address some of the discontents of capitalism) does, in fact, have all the classical relations to a capitalist economy: it does have people who derive support primarily through returns on capital to which others' rented labor is applied (capitalists/bourgeoisie/upper class), it does have small business owners, yeoman farmers (though those are a dying breed), and managers and other elite wage laborers with substantial outside investments who live by a mix of capital and labor (petit bourgeoisie/middle class), and it does have people who are principally dependent on wage labor for their sustenance with no significant capital holdings (proletariat/working/lower class).

And, while the income-based breakdown is common in the media, it also fairly consistently conflicts with people's expectations of what "middle class" should mean in lifestyle terms, which is largely shaped by cultural associations with the "middle class" that are tied to the traditional middle class rather than any "middle income" group (and to a time when the middle income group was consistently progressing toward the middle class, making moving into the middle class a not-unreasonable aspirational goal for much of the working class.)

So, you also see lots of comments every time there is an article about the income-based "middle class" about how the income cutoffs conflict with what people perceive to be necessary to be "middle class". Because those "middle class" expectations are increasingly out-of-line with any middle income group, because the progress which made "middle class" seem to be even within the reasonable aspirational grasp of the middle income group stalled decades ago.

Post reply on HN