Stephen Hawking confirms: The problem is Capitalism, not robots • Hacker News Board

Re: Stephen Hawking confirms: The problem is Capitalism, not robots

#101

Post by vlehto » Tue, Mar 01, 2016, 2:07 PM UTC

hellbanner wrote: post #86

bko wrote: post #56

World Bank estimates that global poverty fell to less than 10% for the first time in history [0]. Perhaps this wasn't solely caused by capitalism and globalization, but considering those two idea were probably the driving forces of the last century, I believe they are instrumental in reducing global poverty. I just don't buy the argument that absolute livings standards have always been increasing due to capitalism bu…

I think the world is a disaster right now. Maybe not for Silicon Valley, but many people around the world are * living under repressive and/or dangerous regimes * lacking access to good nutrition & medical infrastructure * living in over-populated, under-maintained cities

Currently larger percentage or countries are democratic than ever before. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1d/Number_o...

Smaller percentage or world population is malnourished than ever before. http://ourworldindata.org/data/food-agriculture/hunger-and-u...

Your last point is true in some sense, because more people live in cities than ever before. And you can say any city is under-maintained if you put your standards high enough. Due to this effect, there are mixed results in global sanitation trends. Access to clean water is improving, but I can't say for overall picture.

Re: Stephen Hawking confirms: The problem is Capitalism, not robots

#102

Post by PavlovsCat » Tue, Mar 01, 2016, 2:10 PM UTC

boken wrote: post #62

PavlovsCat wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Extrapolate from current trends and the general apathy of the people who could change them. Is there anything you are aware of that would prevent it, other than "it might not happen, for some reason"?

Apathy and disagreement are different things. So are extrapolation and confirmation. No one is in a position to "confirm" this statement or prove it irrecusably wrong. More or less tenable arguments may be made, more or less well. I think Hawking does well here, behind the poorer commentary, but I'm unwilling to engage in or let lie propaganda for any end, particularly on a forum on which we are to default to respect…

> Apathy and disagreement are different things.

Yeah, and that goes both ways. You can't wave away the apathy that exists by disagreeing on other grounds.

> This article is not easily to be dismissed, but its title is misleading - a straight fib - and a misleading headline to suggest one reading over another is propagandistic.

There is not much leeway in how to read Hawkings' actual comments, and as for title, that is the word "confirm":

> 1. to state or show that (something) is true or correct

> 2. to tell someone that something has definitely happened or is going to happen : to make (something) definite or official

> 3. to make (something) stronger or more certain : to cause (someone) to believe (something) more strongly

Notice the last meaning. So this is just a high-ranking comment with nothing to add, splitting hairs about the title. What Hawking said is not easy to dismiss, but that doesn't stop people from trying now does it.

edit: yep, it's already getting buried. Someone of the smarter people on the planet is talking about one of the more serious things in life, but let's talk about gadgets some more.

Re: Stephen Hawking confirms: The problem is Capitalism, not robots

#103

Post by branchless » Tue, Mar 01, 2016, 2:10 PM UTC

nabla9 wrote: post #100

bko wrote: post #56

World Bank estimates that global poverty fell to less than 10% for the first time in history [0]. Perhaps this wasn't solely caused by capitalism and globalization, but considering those two idea were probably the driving forces of the last century, I believe they are instrumental in reducing global poverty. I just don't buy the argument that absolute livings standards have always been increasing due to capitalism bu…

>That's similar to the argument that luddites have always made and they have always been wrong. Industrial revolution resulted malnutrition and deterioration of absolute living standards. It took almost hundred years from the start of the industrial revolution before real wages started to grow. You can see it from the historical records. The height of enlisted men in Britain decreased. Luddites were mostly right. The…

The industrial revolution needs to be understood in the context of land enclosure laws.

Workers had no choice. That is what allows employer exploitation: work for me or starve.

This is why the USA had slavery - there was abundant land. In the UK the UK was the plantation with land enclosure.

This is why now we feel exploited by "capitalism". Banks are flooding the world with fiat money as private debt primarily against land. Don't want to work for the man? You have no choice. Take out your banker debt for education and land and then pay them part of your salary as tribute.

This isn't capitalism.

http://fff.org/explore-freedom/article/enclosure-acts-indust...

When we have access to land we have a choice. Presently we must all toil away to maintain access to living space via a death pledge (mort-gage).

In a capitalist world money is the medium for the message. If we aren't financially free we aren't free.

Re: Stephen Hawking confirms: The problem is Capitalism, not robots

#104

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Mar 01, 2016, 2:10 PM UTC

nabla9 wrote: post #100

bko wrote: post #56

World Bank estimates that global poverty fell to less than 10% for the first time in history [0]. Perhaps this wasn't solely caused by capitalism and globalization, but considering those two idea were probably the driving forces of the last century, I believe they are instrumental in reducing global poverty. I just don't buy the argument that absolute livings standards have always been increasing due to capitalism bu…

>That's similar to the argument that luddites have always made and they have always been wrong. Industrial revolution resulted malnutrition and deterioration of absolute living standards. It took almost hundred years from the start of the industrial revolution before real wages started to grow. You can see it from the historical records. The height of enlisted men in Britain decreased. Luddites were mostly right. The…

[deleted]

Re: Stephen Hawking confirms: The problem is Capitalism, not robots

#105

Post by AndrewUnmuted » Tue, Mar 01, 2016, 2:11 PM UTC

nabla9 wrote: post #100

bko wrote: post #56

World Bank estimates that global poverty fell to less than 10% for the first time in history [0]. Perhaps this wasn't solely caused by capitalism and globalization, but considering those two idea were probably the driving forces of the last century, I believe they are instrumental in reducing global poverty. I just don't buy the argument that absolute livings standards have always been increasing due to capitalism bu…

>That's similar to the argument that luddites have always made and they have always been wrong. Industrial revolution resulted malnutrition and deterioration of absolute living standards. It took almost hundred years from the start of the industrial revolution before real wages started to grow. You can see it from the historical records. The height of enlisted men in Britain decreased. Luddites were mostly right. The…

> Industrial revolution resulted malnutrition and deterioration of absolute living standards.

What? Capitalism did not create poverty or famine - it inherited it, and then swiftly solved it. The industrial revolution, if anything, obliterated it from the Western world. Compared to the centuries of pre-capitalist starvation, the living conditions of the poor in the early years of capitalism were the first chance the poor had ever had to survive.

Re: Stephen Hawking confirms: The problem is Capitalism, not robots

#106

Post by SolaceQuantum » Tue, Mar 01, 2016, 2:13 PM UTC

cbeach wrote: post #27

sametmax wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is assuming that capitalism is the only way to get this kind of efficiency. In fact, it's the only way we could both imagine and successfully implement, but that's it. On the other hand, we now know the limits of it, the corruption it brings, and that's a certitude. So an intelligent and educated reaction is not to say "if you want result you need a self corrupting system" but rather "we like this abundance, and…

Power brings corruption. The kind of state power brought by communism brought the worst corruption the world has ever seen.

Are you sure? The robber barons in the industrial revolution was pretty bad.

Re: Stephen Hawking confirms: The problem is Capitalism, not robots

#107

Post by pnut » Tue, Mar 01, 2016, 2:13 PM UTC

asift wrote: post #54

kingkawn wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering how deeply this community has internalized the importance of creative thought your analysis is pretty limiting to any new possibility being possible.

How? Free market capitalism is the epitome of creative thought. It's not a limiting doctrine that says you can only do this or that. It's a doctrine that says you are free to engage with others however you want so long as you respect their autonomy and freedom to make their own decisions. If someone wants to start a voluntary socialist commune, they have the freedom to do so within a free market. Unfortunately for as…

But my freedom requires the exploitation of millions. Don't impede my creative thought!

Your binary perception of the world doesn't take into account why we have systems at all, be they capitalism or government. The point is to maximize quality for everyone, and you can't get there with a single tool.

Re: Stephen Hawking confirms: The problem is Capitalism, not robots

#108

Post by kolbe » Tue, Mar 01, 2016, 2:13 PM UTC

realusername wrote: post #76

cbeach wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The USSR, Cuba, Vietnam, Communist China, North Korea, Venezuela, Argentina...

so it's either full communist dictatorship or wild west capitalism ? I thought the cold war propaganda was over by now.

It's pretty convenient for him to call the China that struggled several decades ago "communist" while that same country today, whose growth is one of the most impressive economic events in history, is credited with being capitalist (lol).

Re: Stephen Hawking confirms: The problem is Capitalism, not robots

#109

Post by SolaceQuantum » Tue, Mar 01, 2016, 2:19 PM UTC

AndrewUnmuted wrote: post #105

nabla9 wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>That's similar to the argument that luddites have always made and they have always been wrong. Industrial revolution resulted malnutrition and deterioration of absolute living standards. It took almost hundred years from the start of the industrial revolution before real wages started to grow. You can see it from the historical records. The height of enlisted men in Britain decreased. Luddites were mostly right. The…

> Industrial revolution resulted malnutrition and deterioration of absolute living standards. What? Capitalism did not create poverty or famine - it inherited it, and then swiftly solved it. The industrial revolution, if anything, obliterated it from the Western world. Compared to the centuries of pre-capitalist starvation, the living conditions of the poor in the early years of capitalism were the first chance the p…

Have you actually read any muckrake pieces of that time? The industrial revolution brought about the redunancy of weavers who were skilled workers that were brought to poverty[1].

1. http://webs.bcp.org/sites/vcleary/ModernWorldHistoryTextbook...

Re: Stephen Hawking confirms: The problem is Capitalism, not robots

#110

Post by mineshaftgap » Tue, Mar 01, 2016, 2:20 PM UTC

bottled_poe wrote: post #82

afsina wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tell me some of those plenty. When there is little to no coercion from government I doubt any free-market society will fail. And even if it fails, it cannot be as miserably as those socialist ones. Freeing markets almost-always brings better economy.

I guess that depends how we define failure. Some might say 14.8% poverty in a western country would be a failure. https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/publicatio...

I make $70,000, pay little in taxes, except property, and the government pays for my children's healthcare. People misunderstand the US. Hell, I qualify for public housing, I guess I am considered as living in poverty, which is fairly ludicrous.