Valentine's Day Special: Bye Bye Tinder, Flirting in the Support Channel • Hacker News Board

Re: Valentine's Day Special: Bye Bye Tinder, Flirting in the Support Channel

#101

Post by toyg » Fri, Feb 12, 2016, 8:44 PM UTC

vinceguidry wrote: post #93

toyg wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never understood that line of thought. It's like saying one should be free to shout "FIRE!" in a cinema just so that he can feel happy with himself ("hey, my shouting is terrific! I carry no responsibility for what you'll make of the words I say!"). Wearing clothes is a social act, not a personal one. That's why there are laws about it. We geeks should know, considering how we softly strong-armed entire swaths of d…

> It's like saying one should be free to shout "FIRE!" in a cinema just so that he can feel happy with himself But the difference in media and consequences matter. When the consequences involve a stampede of people, you best believe it's a different situation than if the consequences amounted to revving up insecure guys. > Wearing clothes is a social act, not a personal one. It's both. Until society tells you how you…

Sure, differences matter, but the point is that there will be consequences. It is perfectly reasonable to assume that they should never be violent or threatening, but it is unreasonable to expect that there will not be any. That's just selfish entitlement: "the world should work this way because it pleases me so, regardless of facts".

Re: Valentine's Day Special: Bye Bye Tinder, Flirting in the Support Channel

#102

Post by PhasmaFelis » Fri, Feb 12, 2016, 9:08 PM UTC

kelukelugames wrote: post #13

ethanbond wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably trying to find a balance between badtalking their customers and sensibly bringing up an important topic. Thus why half the comments are saying they were speaking harshly about their customers, half are saying it's not serious enough in tone. It seems obvious, based on the last sentence, that they think this is something that must be addressed.

People are sensitive. They snap at the smallest hint that their behavior is wrong. Even if the behavior is only mildly inappropriate.

> People are sensitive. They snap at the smallest hint that their behavior is wrong. Even if the behavior is only mildly inappropriate.

As demonstrated by the fact that someone downvoted this basic tenet of human nature, because they think it might be criticizing them personally.

What's interesting to me is that people who say things like "Quit being so sensitive" are often the people who get really angry if their own sensibilities are offended.

Re: Valentine's Day Special: Bye Bye Tinder, Flirting in the Support Channel

#103

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Feb 12, 2016, 9:08 PM UTC

kelukelugames wrote: post #13

ethanbond wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably trying to find a balance between badtalking their customers and sensibly bringing up an important topic. Thus why half the comments are saying they were speaking harshly about their customers, half are saying it's not serious enough in tone. It seems obvious, based on the last sentence, that they think this is something that must be addressed.

People are sensitive. They snap at the smallest hint that their behavior is wrong. Even if the behavior is only mildly inappropriate.

[deleted]

Re: Valentine's Day Special: Bye Bye Tinder, Flirting in the Support Channel

#104

Post by toyg » Fri, Feb 12, 2016, 9:10 PM UTC

vertex-four wrote: post #86

toyg wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That contrasts with recent findings that some of the happiest workers are hairdressers. Guess what hairdressers do all day, while cutting hair? Chat about random stuff their customers bring up. And yes, a lot of it will be saucy, so to speak, because that's what most people are interested in. Is that customers forcing their sexuality on hairdressers? No, that's just being social "old school". Like you learn to find b…

On the other hand, a hairdresser can usually fire their customer if they're creepy - at least in my country, they're independent workers. A tech support worker can't.

Have you ever worked in generalist tech support? One of the first things you learn is how to draw a line when the situation is beyond mutual respect, because nothing good can happen there and you have already lost. A lot of people like to blow off steam by abusing a random voice on the phone, so you are entitled to quickly apologize and cut them off. Same applies (or should apply, in respectable support shops) in other situations the support worker would deem socially unacceptable. So yeah, you can fire the customer, your mental health comes first.

Btw, the most depressing call I've ever had was with this guy I had helped for weeks, solving his "enterprise" problems. At the time I worked with a female colleague, and we would share customers and tickets. Eventually she left, so when I broke the news to this guy, he went "oh, i'm sorry to hear that. To be honest, I preferred her; I always prefer ladies on the phone". That was humiliating beyond belief. When I told her a few years later (since we kept in touch), she was absolutely flattered. Because sexism is not that bad when it benefits you, so to speak.

Re: Valentine's Day Special: Bye Bye Tinder, Flirting in the Support Channel

#105

Post by lloyd-christmas » Fri, Feb 12, 2016, 9:14 PM UTC

fweespeech wrote: post #26

ascorbic wrote: post #4

This is a bit odd. The tone of the post is "isn't this funny" when really it should be "look at the crap that female support staff have to put up with".

Yeah, I have to agree with you despite the people talking about balance. Hitting on people at work or while they are in the performance of their work duties is not okay.

20% of married couples disagree. There seems to be a running belief that being creepy and hitting on someone are one and the same. "Come grab coffee in buenos ares ;)" != "cmon pleaaaaaaaaaaase". Say those in a bar, a dating site, at the water cooler, in an elevator, in a subway... they mean different things regardless of the location.

Re: Valentine's Day Special: Bye Bye Tinder, Flirting in the Support Channel

#106

Post by vertex-four » Fri, Feb 12, 2016, 9:19 PM UTC

toyg wrote: post #104

vertex-four wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, a hairdresser can usually fire their customer if they're creepy - at least in my country, they're independent workers. A tech support worker can't.

Have you ever worked in generalist tech support? One of the first things you learn is how to draw a line when the situation is beyond mutual respect, because nothing good can happen there and you have already lost. A lot of people like to blow off steam by abusing a random voice on the phone, so you are entitled to quickly apologize and cut them off. Same applies (or should apply, in respectable support shops) in oth…

> So yeah, you can fire the customer

You absolutely cannot ban a customer from your service 99.9% of the time as front-level support. You often can't even put the phone down except in certain pre-defined situations which are decided on without actually communicating with front-line support, never mind groups which might have specific issues within your front-line support team. Harassment is expected and you're expected to deal with it, whether gender-based or not. The best you can do is try to deflect them, as you say, and let them do exactly the same thing next time.

If there were actually consequences to harassing people, few would do it - but as it is, in many cases, from small companies to large ones, retaining the customer is more important than your employees.

Re: Valentine's Day Special: Bye Bye Tinder, Flirting in the Support Channel

#107

Post by Grishnakh » Fri, Feb 12, 2016, 9:35 PM UTC

ksdale wrote: post #30

vinceguidry wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want to call it sexism. I have a female friend who gets hit on virtually constantly. She works for AT&T, and has described lines of hopefuls outside her door when she goes into the office. (she now works mostly from home) She never pays for lunch, never pays for dinner. Men offer her free trips to different countries. She really is that attractive. But women who aren't quite that attractive get hit on all the…

This. I worked at a golf course for a summer and all of the other employees were attractive young women and literally every other guy who came into the pro shop attempted to flirt with them. And most of them were older and married and probably didn't intend to seem sleazy, but it didn't take very long for the sheer volume of it to gross me out.

To play devil's advocate here: isn't there a difference between harmless flirtation and actually attempting to initiate a sexual relationship? Maybe these older, married men miss the days of their youth when they could be around pretty, young women and flirt with them (and more...), and in their current lives they don't have that any more because they're in a boring, monogamous marriage to someone who's not so young and pretty any more and maybe their marriage is rather unhappy too, and their flirtation is just a way to make themselves feel happy, even if they really know that these young women have zero interest in actually having any kind of physical relationship with them. Maybe they just like the interaction, and it serves as a happy distraction to their otherwise unhappy existence.

Re: Valentine's Day Special: Bye Bye Tinder, Flirting in the Support Channel

#108

Post by toyg » Fri, Feb 12, 2016, 9:42 PM UTC

vertex-four wrote: post #106

toyg wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever worked in generalist tech support? One of the first things you learn is how to draw a line when the situation is beyond mutual respect, because nothing good can happen there and you have already lost. A lot of people like to blow off steam by abusing a random voice on the phone, so you are entitled to quickly apologize and cut them off. Same applies (or should apply, in respectable support shops) in oth…

> So yeah, you can fire the customer You absolutely cannot ban a customer from your service 99.9% of the time as front-level support. You often can't even put the phone down except in certain pre-defined situations which are decided on without actually communicating with front-line support, never mind groups which might have specific issues within your front-line support team. Harassment is expected and you're expect…

> You absolutely cannot ban a customer from your service

I guess that depends on the shop and the respect it grants its workers. In my case, at one company we would keep files about offenders and would report them to their managers, who would usually put someone else in charge of communicating with us. At another company we were simply told to cut them off, because tech support fees do not pay for abuse, end of story.

In most cases, any tech support contract worth at least four digits will involve too many people to be cut simply because of an individual hothead here or there, and in any case the wear this sort of bad customers put on your people is not worth whatever money is coming in. Managers who don't understand this are not doing tech support, they are running a sweatshop and they should feel bad, and I am sorry if you met anyone like that.

Re: Valentine's Day Special: Bye Bye Tinder, Flirting in the Support Channel

#109

Post by jorgenhorstink » Fri, Feb 12, 2016, 9:54 PM UTC

Am I the only one who thinks it is odd to fake an employee? It just feels dishonest and utterly wrong to me.

Re: Valentine's Day Special: Bye Bye Tinder, Flirting in the Support Channel

#110

Post by Grishnakh » Fri, Feb 12, 2016, 9:54 PM UTC

jazzyk wrote: post #72

yummyfajitas wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is downplaying one's looks "awful" or "doing violence to yourself"? When we wear non-practical clothes (e.g. anything besides athletic wear or comfy cargo pants), the entire purpose is to cause other humans to respond to us in a way that we find favorable. I recently purchased a slim red pants designed to convey a) that I'm a moderately creative type and b) that I have a nice ass. The net result is that I get des…

Off-topic, but why is attention from "fat chicks and gays" undesirable? I personally do not discriminate when someone compliments me - it does not necessarily mean they want to have sex with me and even if they do, so what? It is nice to be appreciated (especially since happens less and less often as you age :-))

Well, what sucks is when you only get attention from groups that you have no interest in, and the people you are interested in seem to have no interest in you.

In a way, getting the interest from the undesirable people makes it even worse, because you're seeing the difference. If everyone ignored you, it wouldn't seem as bad I think. But if you're a straight dude, and you can't get a date to save your life, but gay men are constantly hitting on you, that's not going to do much for your self-esteem, it's going to make you question why you only seem to appeal to them.