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Elon Musk: Only a Carbon Tax Will Accelerate the World's Exit from Fossil Fuels

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Re: Elon Musk: Only a Carbon Tax Will Accelerate the World's Exit from Fossil Fuels

#101

Post by pzone »

alerkay wrote: post #93
danieltillett wrote: post #30

I used to think that carbon taxes were the way to go, but I have seen how effective the fossil fuel industry is at creating FUD. When you consider an effective carbon tax makes all their assets worthless it is not surprising that they will do whatever it takes to block anything other than a nominal carbon tax. There really is only one way to get past the fossil fuel industry and that is to buy them out. Given the ben…

Thinking about your post, I think you have a point there. I noticed that in his speech, Elon Musk doesn't talk at all about what form the carbon tax should take. In reality, if a carbon tax went into action, 90% of its effect would hit fossil fuel companies and nobody else. Am I wrong? How do you implement a carbon tax then?

Suppose we want a tax of $50 / ton of co2 emitted. Then we do some chemistry and figure that burning 5 barrels of oil emits a ton of co2 into the air. Then the government adds a tax of $10 per barrel. Every producer who buys from the gasoline refiner has to pay the tax.

Individual gas stations and consumers wouldn't have to think about it, since they aren't purchasing from refineries directly. But the prices they pay would increase indirectly.

Re: Elon Musk: Only a Carbon Tax Will Accelerate the World's Exit from Fossil Fuels

#102

Post by danieltillett »

pzone wrote: post #72
danieltillett wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The big victims are the owners of fossil fuel deposits and infrastructure. Have a guess who is funding all the FUD about global warming. Personally I think we should just buy the fossil fuel owners out at current market prices and shut them down as soon as possible. FUD in this area is just too effective to counter with logic or science so lets pay them off. If we wanted to be really clever we could do a 1 for 1 swap…

You should stop casting these guys as villains, it obscures the main point of your argument. You would probably do the same lobbying if you were in their position. (Rather, if you were a major shareholder in Exxon, you would demand that managers do it.) Just think of this in terms of Exxon &c having an effective negotiating position for blocking the carbon tax. We don't have to buy things at current market prices, bu…

I didn't mean to cast Exxon and co as villains, just explain why. Yes I think we need to recognise that they have a very strong hand and deal with it head on. Trying to fight them will only mean we all lose.

Re: Elon Musk: Only a Carbon Tax Will Accelerate the World's Exit from Fossil Fuels

#103

Post by lkiernan »

antimagic wrote: post #91
valvar wrote: post #4

Not that I disagree (in fact I strongly agree), but is Musk really the person we should be taking this from? It's a bit like taking investment advice from your bank, meseems. Not necessarily a bad idea, but you might want to hear with people who don't have an active interest in the placement of your money first.

You're getting cause and effect back to front - Musk started Tesla because he wanted to play a real part in reducing emissions. He is on record as saying so. So arguing for a carbon tax is just another effort in that direction, not an attempt to bolster his business.

"CEO says he has your best interests at heart" is a fairly common line though.

Re: Elon Musk: Only a Carbon Tax Will Accelerate the World's Exit from Fossil Fuels

#104

Post by pzone »

piokoch wrote: post #97

The question is who will pay that tax? In Musk vision governments should lower other taxes (which one?) and introduce carbon tax. I am afraid that the devil is in the details and it may turn out that this tax will be paid mostly by car owners (rising delivery costs, so food prices would grow) or people in rural areas who use coal heaters. The poor will suffer most in such case. I am also afraid that governments would…

Well, lower taxes on poor people. Increase welfare, subsidize public transportation and other things that help transfer money to people who are hurt by the tax.

"Figure out the best way to produce energy" is not something we can figure out posting on HN, or even in a presidential debate. It is a complex and very uncertain question, but since it is a question of innovation, it is the kind of question that markets are very good at answering. A carbon tax directs the market toward finding out the solution efficiently.

Re: Elon Musk: Only a Carbon Tax Will Accelerate the World's Exit from Fossil Fuels

#105

Post by danieltillett »

Synaesthesia wrote: post #90

Another thing that would help is to stop subsidizing the fossil-fuel industry! The IMF estimates that about $5.3 trillion is spent annually subsidizing fossil fuel energy. http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/survey/so/2015/NEW070215...

This is certainly the low hanging fruit.

Re: Elon Musk: Only a Carbon Tax Will Accelerate the World's Exit from Fossil Fuels

#106

Post by SneakerXZ »

valvar wrote: post #4

Not that I disagree (in fact I strongly agree), but is Musk really the person we should be taking this from? It's a bit like taking investment advice from your bank, meseems. Not necessarily a bad idea, but you might want to hear with people who don't have an active interest in the placement of your money first.

But even if he does it for his own profit, it will help humanity. Also car industry is huge so other mades after introducing this tax would introduce electric cars so Tesla would have same amount of competition.

Re: Elon Musk: Only a Carbon Tax Will Accelerate the World's Exit from Fossil Fuels

#107

Post by tbabb »

piokoch wrote: post #97

The question is who will pay that tax? In Musk vision governments should lower other taxes (which one?) and introduce carbon tax. I am afraid that the devil is in the details and it may turn out that this tax will be paid mostly by car owners (rising delivery costs, so food prices would grow) or people in rural areas who use coal heaters. The poor will suffer most in such case. I am also afraid that governments would…

> I am afraid that the devil is in the details and it may turn out that this tax will be paid mostly by car owners (rising delivery costs, so food prices would grow) or people in rural areas who use coal heaters. The poor will suffer most in such case.

[citation needed]

Re: Elon Musk: Only a Carbon Tax Will Accelerate the World's Exit from Fossil Fuels

#108

Post by greglindahl »

pzone wrote: post #40
jdc wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren't there significant carbon emissions released during the production of a Tesla car and its components?

It is theoretically possible to develop technology that makes electric cars greatly more co2 efficient over the lifetime than internal combustion engines ever could be. That puts Tesla at an advantage in the long run.

That's not a theory -- given the trends in the electricity markets, that's expected.

Re: Elon Musk: Only a Carbon Tax Will Accelerate the World's Exit from Fossil Fuels

#109

Post by threeseed »

msellout wrote: post #14
valvar wrote: post #4

Not that I disagree (in fact I strongly agree), but is Musk really the person we should be taking this from? It's a bit like taking investment advice from your bank, meseems. Not necessarily a bad idea, but you might want to hear with people who don't have an active interest in the placement of your money first.

Well, your barber is an expert on hair.

I haven't seen anything to suggest he is an expert in macro-economic forecast modelling.

Just because I know how to use a command line doesn't equate to me being an expert in running an IT company. It's not the best analogy but Musk is pretty far removed from what most economists actually do.

Re: Elon Musk: Only a Carbon Tax Will Accelerate the World's Exit from Fossil Fuels

#110

Post by dagw »

pzone wrote: post #70
funkyy wrote: post #64

You cannot just introduce tax and hope for best when the whole tax system and tax recovery is a joke that hurts mainly SMBs. Its not like big corporations will pay them anyway. If you want to introduce a tax on something so intangible as emissions, you would need to build easy to track and easy to use tax system.

?? You just tax sales of oil, natural gas, etc. and a few other specific activities, like raising livestock, it's super easy If Congress can implement something as complex as the Dodd-Frank act, I'm sure it can measure and tax something as basic as carbon emissions

If only a few countries introduces/enforces this tax it will simply drive the huge carbon emitters to move their emissions to other countries. The only people that will be hurt are those that are too small to move.
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