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Ad-blocking: a sign that web publishers don’t care about readers

blogs.law.harvard.edu

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Re: Ad-blocking: a sign that web publishers don’t care about readers

#101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do the PR drones who write this stuff not instantly and repeatedly punch themselves in the face? I can probably count on one hand the number of advertisers who respect "performance, security, and privacy." Text and static image ads served from a first-party domain don't bother me, but web-wide creeps following my every move to "retarget" me with invasive annoyances and act as almost-but-not-quite credit reporting…

I can probably count on one hand the number of advertisers who respect "performance, security, and privacy." Fine, then Mozilla's argument is that we should block everyone except those. And that we also should block trackers not in ads as well (e.g. Analytics). I'm don't see why this is so contemptible a statement, or why we should call a person a "PR drone" for writing it.

The statement is designed to be (deniably) deceitful. Taken literally, it basically says "blow up the whole online commercial surveillance industry, and everyone who relies on it for most of their revenue." That happens to include Mozilla, formerly a subsidiary of Google, now one of Yahoo, so I doubt they mean that.

Re: Ad-blocking: a sign that web publishers don’t care about readers

#102
post #37

The Mozilla Foundation has come out against ad blocking: "Content blocking software should focus on addressing potential user needs (such as on performance, security, and privacy) instead of blocking specific types of content (such as advertising)."[1] This is sad. Their slogan used to be "Work for mankind, not for the man". But the Mozilla Foundation is ad-funded. They currently have a deal with Yahoo to make Yahoo…

Everyone emphasizes the privacy/tracking reasons for ad blocking and mentions the annoyance/performance reasons in passing.

I think it's important to point out that, when you ask people they mention two other defenses of ad blocking:

1. They hate advertising in general. They would block it everywhere if they could. They know it's engineered to manipulate them, often with lifestyle advertising it's engineered to manipulate them into feeling worse and promising to sell them the cure, but it's always engineered to manipulate them in some way. The psychological techniques are very good, better to just block it than falsely assume you can be exposed and then will it into having no effect.

2. It's their computer so it will do whatever they want it to. Remove ads, remove other parts of your site, remix your site, redesign it, remove all your branding completely, etc. These are the more technical uses with a lot of plugins/userscripts but when you show it off to less technical users they want it too, although it's not available to them yet.

It has become a good litmus tests to see who mentions the problems with advertising in general and who sticks with the constructed narrative of "Is it OK to steal content to protect your private information?".

I agree, I would have expected Mozilla (even though I know they are ad supported) to not fail this particular test.

Re: Ad-blocking: a sign that web publishers don’t care about readers

#103
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's approaching from the wrong angle. I am not responsible for publishers adopting a distribution format that allows me to render their content without ads (HTML). If they can't survive in an environment where people can freely (ethically, morally, and legally) block ads [1] then that really is their problem and not mine. The web has changed the face of publishing, but the world has no obligation to keep someones…

Your point #1 is sophistry. They're making things available with the clear expectation of getting ad revenue. If you don't like ads, either don't visit the site or complain when it all goes behind a paywall. Besides, your argument is essentially “If you want me to pay, use DRM”. I would suggest that this is not a direction we need to try going down again.

It's hardly sophistry. My point is the web as it stands has certain features. One of those features is that servers can't control how clients render content. I think it's pure hubris for content providers to move onto the web and then suddenly demand that things work the way they want ("you must render our ads or you're stealing") ignoring the way things actually work.

> Besides, your argument is essentially “If you want me to pay, use DRM”. I would suggest that this is not a direction we need to try going down again.

That sort of is my point, but not quite. Because once DRM is in the picture then I (and everyone else) won't partake of the content, which is what they want of me anyway. Until that time, I feel morally, ethically, and legally free to render their content as I see fit.

Re: Ad-blocking: a sign that web publishers don’t care about readers

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Now that consumers have been subjected to piles of abusive ads, they're just blocking all of the ads regardless of how bad they are. Not really; they're blocking all ads except the ones that are unblockable: ads masquerading as content (sponsored posts, etc). It's inevitable to a degree; most people are willing to whine loudly and pretend they have the moral high ground about things that are immediately visible, bu…

Paid content is not always awful. Take this tasteful, sponsored Ashens video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUGcjkdIfTk There is a clear disclosure (no misleading marketing!) and he presents a new and interesting version of his usual show while incorporating the product. It's not selling out, and it's fairly enjoyable (as evidenced by the rating counter on the video, as well as the comments). If I must be advertise…

Sure, but as usual, anecdotal evidence isn't worth much[1]. I'm sure I can point you to traditional display ads that I've seen on the Web that are tasteful, useful, and unobtrusive. Does that obviate all the complaints people have about display ads overall? Of course not. Similarly, the amount of times I've heard a podcast say "this episode sponsored by blahblah, [explanation of blahblah]" doesn't erase the amount of examples I've seen of an article with a tiny "sponsored by X" at the top. And as is inevitable when financial pressure is great enough, you end up with even well-respected publishers resorting to stuff like this: http://adage.com/article/media/york-times-shrinks-labeling-n...

[1] I'm aware that you're explicitly providing a counter-example, so I'm not disagreeing with your comment. Just saying that it doesn't really address my point.

Re: Ad-blocking: a sign that web publishers don’t care about readers

#105
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Now that consumers have been subjected to piles of abusive ads, they're just blocking all of the ads regardless of how bad they are. Not really; they're blocking all ads except the ones that are unblockable: ads masquerading as content (sponsored posts, etc). It's inevitable to a degree; most people are willing to whine loudly and pretend they have the moral high ground about things that are immediately visible, bu…

Paid content on the web has been bad because there has been a glut of free content. But if we look at the history of print, paid content did quite well for a very long time. Books, you might recall, were pretty popular. Many magazines and newspapers used to make a great deal of their revenues from subscription fees. Video similarly seems to have worked well when paid: movies have always been profitable. The recent "g…

[deleted]

Re: Ad-blocking: a sign that web publishers don’t care about readers

#106
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Now that consumers have been subjected to piles of abusive ads, they're just blocking all of the ads regardless of how bad they are. Not really; they're blocking all ads except the ones that are unblockable: ads masquerading as content (sponsored posts, etc). It's inevitable to a degree; most people are willing to whine loudly and pretend they have the moral high ground about things that are immediately visible, bu…

Paid content on the web has been bad because there has been a glut of free content. But if we look at the history of print, paid content did quite well for a very long time. Books, you might recall, were pretty popular. Many magazines and newspapers used to make a great deal of their revenues from subscription fees. Video similarly seems to have worked well when paid: movies have always been profitable. The recent "g…

> The recent "golden age of television" has been attributed to the increasing volume of paid content

Interesting, really? Do you have a source referring to this? The only theory I've heard is that as Hollywood studios have become financially more conservative (cf the dominance of remakes, reboots, sequels, prequels, etc relative to decades past), talent interested in taking risks has fled to television.

> Paid content on the web has been bad because there has been a glut of free content.

Right, and the glut of free content is facilitated by the incredibly low marginal cost of distribution. Buzzfeed has built their entire business on this: instead of "writers", they have "people with a spare ten minutes to Google a set of gifs"[1]. I don't see how this is a feature of the Internet that is going to disappear, especially since people have spoken loudly and clearly that, en masse, paid media will be ignored in favor of nominally free alternatives. Your book example is particularly useful in proving my point: those books that aren't encumbered by the monopoly power of copyright are freely available on Kindle or through Project Gutenberg. TL;DR: As long as there's a free alternative, people writ large won't pay, and as long

> I use an ad blocker because I'm not interested in participating in a system that is based around manipulation of people.

This is what bothers me about people who try to take the moral high ground about ad-blocking. How in God's name do you come to the conclusion that "not participating in a system" is anything but "not visiting those sites"? If you think Beats headphones are priced more for brand than quality[2], do you go "I refuse to participate in a system that overprices products based on fooling customers" and then merrily shoplift your way through their inventory?

[1] Side note: I love this site. http://buzzfeedminusgifs.tumblr.com/

[2] Note that I'm very uninterested whether people think Beats are fairly priced or not and don't have an opinion about it myself; I'm not an audiophile and was just parroting something I've heard a bunch of times for the purposes of constructing a hypothetical. Please don't respond to this comment arguing about Beats...

Re: Ad-blocking: a sign that web publishers don’t care about readers

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Now that consumers have been subjected to piles of abusive ads, they're just blocking all of the ads regardless of how bad they are. Not really; they're blocking all ads except the ones that are unblockable: ads masquerading as content (sponsored posts, etc). It's inevitable to a degree; most people are willing to whine loudly and pretend they have the moral high ground about things that are immediately visible, bu…

Paid content is not always awful. Take this tasteful, sponsored Ashens video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUGcjkdIfTk There is a clear disclosure (no misleading marketing!) and he presents a new and interesting version of his usual show while incorporating the product. It's not selling out, and it's fairly enjoyable (as evidenced by the rating counter on the video, as well as the comments). If I must be advertise…

BTW I realize that my terminology was really confusing. By "paid content", I meant "content that you pay for". You appear to have responded to the part of my post about sponsored content. Just want to make sure that you weren't also reading the part of my comment about paid content and thinking of sponsored content.

Re: Ad-blocking: a sign that web publishers don’t care about readers

#108
post #91
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet Apple puts huge ads in metro stations all over the world. They pick what's interesting for them - no ads on mac and iOS, and huge ad campaigns elsewhere

You mean like http://i.imgur.com/OLIVc53.jpg ?

yes. it's all over the place.

On the web as well https://imgur.com/vU8sYyu

Re: Ad-blocking: a sign that web publishers don’t care about readers

#109
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you ever give consent for ads in your print newspaper? They "load" on the page, without asking

But they don't cost me actual real money both in terms of bandwidth costs and psychological cost (tracking induces paranoia which curbs my thought, which adjusts my online search behaviour, for one example). Printed adverts in a newspaper do not have these costs.

They do cost real money. The price of the newspaper is proportional to the number of pages printed, including ad pages.

You are right about online tracking though.

Re: Ad-blocking: a sign that web publishers don’t care about readers

#110
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paid content on the web has been bad because there has been a glut of free content. But if we look at the history of print, paid content did quite well for a very long time. Books, you might recall, were pretty popular. Many magazines and newspapers used to make a great deal of their revenues from subscription fees. Video similarly seems to have worked well when paid: movies have always been profitable. The recent "g…

> The recent "golden age of television" has been attributed to the increasing volume of paid content Interesting, really? Do you have a source referring to this? The only theory I've heard is that as Hollywood studios have become financially more conservative (cf the dominance of remakes, reboots, sequels, prequels, etc relative to decades past), talent interested in taking risks has fled to television. > Paid conten…

I can't find where I read the notion on paid content originally, but it makes sense to me. With 3 network channels and the goal of maximizing ad revenue, you need a lot of stuff that a lot of people will watch, which mean generally adequate, inoffensive, middlebrow programming. Places like HBO and Netflix, though, live and die based on whether people a) sign up to pay, and b) keep paying. That gives a strong incentive to create very compelling, high-quality shows that a narrower audience will definitely watch. (I think the invention of reality TV has also helped, in that it has drained off the fraction of the audience that is happy with low-end, cheap-to-produce programming.)

Regarding me using an ad-blocker: your use of physical theft as an analogy for viewing content is just embarrassing on Hacker News. You should know better.

The difference is that if I steal headphones, the store is deprived of the headphones. Whereas if I read an article without also paying to download and display their ads, they still have the article. If they would like to only show content and ads at the same time, there are technological fixes they could apply. If they do, I won't be working around them.

They presumably haven't because there is value to them in people reading and sharing their content whether or not ads are viewed. And also because the marginal cost of a view is so small that it's best expressed in scientific notation. Personally, I don't bother trying not to read their stuff because a) I am looking for opportunities to pay people who are willing (e.g., I pay the NYT), b) I hope it'll contribute to the signal to them that their ad-driven model is not sustainable, and c) I'm not the level of obsessive that is going to carefully decide which sites to visit because I might be costing large media companies epsilon cents until they get their acts together.

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