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European Citizens’ Initiative against TTIP and CETA

stop-ttip.org

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Re: European Citizens’ Initiative against TTIP and CETA

#11

Post by pizza234 »

Orinocco wrote: post #6
happyscrappy wrote: post #3

If this is defeated won't individual deals between each country have to be struck? That seems likely to have a worse outcome for Europe as countries will be played against each other.

I agree, could someone please explain why CETA and TTIP are worth stopping? Given that the link doesn't seem to, and I don't have time to watch the press conference.

One of the major concerns of the TTIP is the Investor State Dispute Settlements, which allows US investors to be able to sue EU Member States in cases where their investment has been diminished due to regulatory changes made in the public interest (1). This is corporatocracy at its finest.

Interesting, the canonical examples have been removed from the Wikipedia TTIP article.

The first example is Vattenfall vs. Germany. The former, an energy provider, sued and won against the latter, for the decision to phase out nuclear energy.

The second is Philip Morris vs. Australia, because of the decision to require plain packaging on tobacco products.

I can't certainly argue against an agreement made against two parties, but the problem here is that TTIP is made in secret, between arguably corrupted representatives of populations which wouldn't certainly agree with such decisions.

(1)=I've rephrased this from http://blogg.uio.no/jus/smr/multirights/content/the-ttip-inv...

Re: European Citizens’ Initiative against TTIP and CETA

#12

Post by daenney »

waps wrote: post #10
daenney wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The goal is to stop this in its current form. It's currently being negotiated in secret, which is never a good sign. It's also very likely to once again include all kinds of directives greatly benefitting a few lobbying partners without the EU citizens knowing what's going on until it's too late.

EU citizens ? Why do they matter ? The EU fought hard to get two legal precedents : 1) that international treaties preceed the constitutions of member states (and any and all other laws). 2) that the European Commission would be allowed to agree to international treaties on behalf of member states. There is nobody that can stop this that isn't already in power and Volcker can push this through without ratification by…

Sure, it can be pushed through, as could have previous tech-related secret bills. However, they weren't, because so many people and organisations took up arms and fought against it.

Just because something might not be a democratic process doesn't mean we can't fight against it and book a win against it.

Re: European Citizens’ Initiative against TTIP and CETA

#13

Post by Orinocco »

touristtam wrote: post #9
Orinocco wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, could someone please explain why CETA and TTIP are worth stopping? Given that the link doesn't seem to, and I don't have time to watch the press conference.

There is a nicely explained article about the potential threat to democracy that is TTIP: http://mondediplo.com/2013/12/02tafta . Incidently techdirt just ran an article on how Bolivia broke their own trade agreement with similar clauses: https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140712/10031927860/boliv...

Thanks, very informative - I see why this is a problem now!

Re: European Citizens’ Initiative against TTIP and CETA

#14

Post by phtrivier »

waps wrote: post #10
daenney wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The goal is to stop this in its current form. It's currently being negotiated in secret, which is never a good sign. It's also very likely to once again include all kinds of directives greatly benefitting a few lobbying partners without the EU citizens knowing what's going on until it's too late.

EU citizens ? Why do they matter ? The EU fought hard to get two legal precedents : 1) that international treaties preceed the constitutions of member states (and any and all other laws). 2) that the European Commission would be allowed to agree to international treaties on behalf of member states. There is nobody that can stop this that isn't already in power and Volcker can push this through without ratification by…

I beg to differ : as far as I know, the European Commission has been granted a mandate to negociate, but the European Parlement (which represents the EU citizens, however badly/poorly elected it is) will have to ratify it ; then depending on the exact content of the treaty, national parlements might have to ratify it, too.

Which does not change the fact that the current way the treaty is negociated is probably too secret.

Re: European Citizens’ Initiative against TTIP and CETA

#15

Post by bayesianhorse »

waps wrote: post #10
daenney wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The goal is to stop this in its current form. It's currently being negotiated in secret, which is never a good sign. It's also very likely to once again include all kinds of directives greatly benefitting a few lobbying partners without the EU citizens knowing what's going on until it's too late.

EU citizens ? Why do they matter ? The EU fought hard to get two legal precedents : 1) that international treaties preceed the constitutions of member states (and any and all other laws). 2) that the European Commission would be allowed to agree to international treaties on behalf of member states. There is nobody that can stop this that isn't already in power and Volcker can push this through without ratification by…

You seem to lack a basic understanding of the EU, or democracy in general. Volcker can't "push TTIP through without ratification by any kind of elected body". The elected government, eu parliament, in many cases national parliaments will have a strong voice in ratification.

This process isn't undemocratic in the least. It's just that the decisions are complex. I'm not strongly in favour of TTIP in its current form, but the more I know about it, the less I believe all the fear mongering.

There seems to be a gut reflex of "I don't understand it, so it must be undemocratic!!"

Re: European Citizens’ Initiative against TTIP and CETA

#16

Post by jcfrei »

waps wrote: post #10
daenney wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The goal is to stop this in its current form. It's currently being negotiated in secret, which is never a good sign. It's also very likely to once again include all kinds of directives greatly benefitting a few lobbying partners without the EU citizens knowing what's going on until it's too late.

EU citizens ? Why do they matter ? The EU fought hard to get two legal precedents : 1) that international treaties preceed the constitutions of member states (and any and all other laws). 2) that the European Commission would be allowed to agree to international treaties on behalf of member states. There is nobody that can stop this that isn't already in power and Volcker can push this through without ratification by…

A fundamental critique stems from the following effects of the policy:

Companies would be able to demand compensation from countries whose health, financial, environmental and other public interest policies they thought to be undermining their interests, and take governments before extrajudicial tribunals. These tribunals, organised under World Bank and UN rules would have the power to order taxpayers to pay extensive compensation over legislation seen as undermining a company’s “expected future profits”.

taken from: http://mondediplo.com/2013/12/02tafta . From my understanding this is basically an incentive for national governments to make their (consumer) laws as accordant with each other as possible. One problem I see with this implementation is that this will result in an accordance (of national laws) on the lowest common denominator, ie. the weakest form of consumer protection. In this specific case this would mostly mean levels of consumer protection as seen in the USA and this is in my opinion not in the interest of the general consumer (but that's a discussion of its own).

Re: European Citizens’ Initiative against TTIP and CETA

#17

Post by bayesianhorse »

daenney wrote: post #12
waps wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EU citizens ? Why do they matter ? The EU fought hard to get two legal precedents : 1) that international treaties preceed the constitutions of member states (and any and all other laws). 2) that the European Commission would be allowed to agree to international treaties on behalf of member states. There is nobody that can stop this that isn't already in power and Volcker can push this through without ratification by…

Sure, it can be pushed through, as could have previous tech-related secret bills. However, they weren't, because so many people and organisations took up arms and fought against it. Just because something might not be a democratic process doesn't mean we can't fight against it and book a win against it.

This "process" can't be democratic or undemocratic. The only question can be how far the decision making process is removed from the public.

I can understand the rationale for keeping the negotiations largely secret. This is a very big negotiation, and in general, all sorts of demands or proposals are put on the table in the beginning. Many of these proposals have no chance of getting ratified, but they would still be lethal ammunition for any EU-hating party.

Re: European Citizens’ Initiative against TTIP and CETA

#18

Post by peterclary »

throwaway28974 wrote: post #5
happyscrappy wrote: post #3

If this is defeated won't individual deals between each country have to be struck? That seems likely to have a worse outcome for Europe as countries will be played against each other.

Why? There have been no such deals for the last 20 years and things are working just fine.

Please define "fine", throwaway28974. And for whom?

Re: European Citizens’ Initiative against TTIP and CETA

#19

Post by ginko »

waps wrote: post #10
daenney wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The goal is to stop this in its current form. It's currently being negotiated in secret, which is never a good sign. It's also very likely to once again include all kinds of directives greatly benefitting a few lobbying partners without the EU citizens knowing what's going on until it's too late.

EU citizens ? Why do they matter ? The EU fought hard to get two legal precedents : 1) that international treaties preceed the constitutions of member states (and any and all other laws). 2) that the European Commission would be allowed to agree to international treaties on behalf of member states. There is nobody that can stop this that isn't already in power and Volcker can push this through without ratification by…

TTIP would still have to pass the directly elected EP. Juncker, the new head of the commission was also nominated due to his fraction winning the most seats in parliament.

Re: European Citizens’ Initiative against TTIP and CETA

#20

Post by Orinocco »

pizza234 wrote: post #11
Orinocco wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, could someone please explain why CETA and TTIP are worth stopping? Given that the link doesn't seem to, and I don't have time to watch the press conference.

One of the major concerns of the TTIP is the Investor State Dispute Settlements, which allows US investors to be able to sue EU Member States in cases where their investment has been diminished due to regulatory changes made in the public interest (1). This is corporatocracy at its finest. Interesting, the canonical examples have been removed from the Wikipedia TTIP article. The first example is Vattenfall vs. German…

Thanks! I'm signed up. Philip Morris vs. Australia sounds like it should be satire :(
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