Every single bit of physics is math at it's core. If you come up with a new physical theory you will be ignored unless you also include the math for it.
The Supreme Court doesn't understand software
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Re: The Supreme Court doesn't understand software
#12It's unreasonable to ask them to understand software as well as a software engineer.
Re: The Supreme Court doesn't understand software
#13I was with him until: "The idea behind patents is to create a financial incentive to promote innovation: patents ensure that the inventor of a new idea can get compensated for it, rather than seeing her idea immediately ripped off by copycats." The purpose of patents had nothing to do with compensation. It was already presumed that an inventor could sell an invention. The real purpose was to promote disclosure of how…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_patent_law
By the 16th century, the English Crown would habitually grant letters patent for monopolies to favoured persons (or people who were prepared to pay for them).[13] This power was used to raise money for the Crown, and was widely abused, as the Crown granted patents in respect of all sorts of common goods (salt, for example). Consequently, the Court began to limit the circumstances in which they could be granted. After public outcry, James I of England was forced to revoke all existing monopolies and declare that they were only to be used for "projects of new invention". This was incorporated into the Statute of Monopolies in which Parliament restricted the Crown's power explicitly so that the King could only issue letters patent to the inventors or introducers of original inventions for a fixed number of years. It also voided all existing monopolies and dispensations with [some] exception[s]....
There has also been some historical research that suggests that the "Statute of Monopolies" was a political compromise[1]. There wasn't really a lot of thought about maximizing innovation or incentives, or whatever. However, I fully agree that the popular understanding of the patent system has more to do with incentives for innovation and disclosure. But any engineer will tell you there's far more optimal ways to explain technical devices and inventions than legalese and claims.
On a related note, the USSR had a patent system. With patents. Who would have thought? This stuff is super ingrained.
[1] http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/Generally%20inconvenient:%20...
Re: The Supreme Court doesn't understand software
#14The author misses the gist of the Supreme Court's opinion in CLS Bank v. Alice: > In Thursday's ruling, the court rejected a patent that claimed the concept of using a computer to hedge against "counterparty risk" — the risk of making a bargain and then having the other guy not pay up. The Supreme Court complained that in the process described in the patent, "each step does no more than require a generic computer to…
OK, but the same logic can invalidate almost any software patent. Apple's "data detectors" patent, for example, claims the concept of detecting data in a document (an abstract idea, it seems to me) plus a generic description of the steps someone would have to take to implement this on a computer. A data compression patent would cover some mathematical principle (replace frequently-repeated sequences with a shorter re…
If you look at CLS Bank v. Alice, the Court concludes that intermediated settlement is an abstract idea because it is "a fundamental economic principle." So to use your example, data compression (replacing frequently-repeated sequences with a shorter representation) might be a "fundamental computer science principle." But Lempel-Ziv-Welch, a specific compression algorithm, wouldn't be.
Re: The Supreme Court doesn't understand software
#15Earlier quoted context omitted.
OK, but the same logic can invalidate almost any software patent. Apple's "data detectors" patent, for example, claims the concept of detecting data in a document (an abstract idea, it seems to me) plus a generic description of the steps someone would have to take to implement this on a computer. A data compression patent would cover some mathematical principle (replace frequently-repeated sequences with a shorter re…
The key phrase in your comment is: "an abstract idea, it seems to me." The phrase "abstract idea" is, in this context, a legal term of art. It means what the Supreme Court wants it to mean. If you look at CLS Bank v. Alice, the Court concludes that intermediated settlement is an abstract idea because it is "a fundamental economic principle." So to use your example, data compression (replacing frequently-repeated sequ…
Basic Lossless compression can function like this:
Imagine a string of 1's and 0's e.g. 10010000011000101111001
This string can be trivially compressed in a losses manor using this algo, every time the bit changes to a one or zeor, record the previous run of bits. So we would compress this string to look like: [1,1][0,2][1,1][0,5][1,2][0,3][1,1][0,1][1,4][0,2][1,1]
I understand now this is a terrible example however it is good enough here.
So since most/all compression algos are just using a pre-defined set of choices on how to compress data in either a lossless or lossy manor. The only difference between two compression algos would be their rules for what data to keep and how to arrange it more efficiently into a different data structure.
I think the analogy of board games can be used here. While you are free to get a trade mark on many aspects of your game, you can not patent the actual rules or game play. http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl108.html
The rules and game play is what makes Risk different from mouse-trap.
Replace rules with compression algo (or any software algo...) and we come to the conclusion of software is not patentable.
So at what point does a collection of fundamental computer science concepts become patentable?
The line is completely arbitrary using the compressions algo example. I honestly have not been able to reason through a real life example that hold up to this scrutiny.
Maybe I am misinterpreting your answer, so if I am, I apologize, just ignore me =D
EDIT
Thanks to person for the discussion free down vote. Why engage when you can suppress.
Re: The Supreme Court doesn't understand software
#16The problem with saying the software is math is that EVERYTHING is math. Every single bit of physics is math at it's core. If you come up with a new physical theory you will be ignored unless you also include the math for it.
Eg, has anyone filed a patent on something like "swing hammer to drive nail." Or "Spin wheel to turn car?"
I personally have not heard of such ridiculous claims however it wouldn't surprise me to learn some have slipped through the "filters" that are supposed to catch this stuff.
Re: The Supreme Court doesn't understand software
#17I was with him until: "The idea behind patents is to create a financial incentive to promote innovation: patents ensure that the inventor of a new idea can get compensated for it, rather than seeing her idea immediately ripped off by copycats." The purpose of patents had nothing to do with compensation. It was already presumed that an inventor could sell an invention. The real purpose was to promote disclosure of how…
To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries.
It's clear from the historical record that this was about ensuring monetary compensation for invention, as knock-off devices were just as common then as they are now.
In fact, public access to patents was basically non-existent until the Patent Act of 1836. The "non-obvious" test came even later.
Re: The Supreme Court doesn't understand software
#18The problem with saying the software is math is that EVERYTHING is math. Every single bit of physics is math at it's core. If you come up with a new physical theory you will be ignored unless you also include the math for it.
Are there any patents on physics or laws of physics, the same way there are patents on things like "swipe to unlock?" Eg, has anyone filed a patent on something like "swing hammer to drive nail." Or "Spin wheel to turn car?" I personally have not heard of such ridiculous claims however it wouldn't surprise me to learn some have slipped through the "filters" that are supposed to catch this stuff.
Re: The Supreme Court doesn't understand software
#19> The problem is that "software" and "mathematical algorithm" are two terms for the same thing. The Knuth quotation in the article, used in support of this position, actually seems to invalidate it in my view. "Algorithms are exactly as basic to programmers as words are to writers." The key being words . The value in a piece of literature has little to do with the individual words it's made from, just as a piece of s…
Re: The Supreme Court doesn't understand software
#20Earlier quoted context omitted.
The key phrase in your comment is: "an abstract idea, it seems to me." The phrase "abstract idea" is, in this context, a legal term of art. It means what the Supreme Court wants it to mean. If you look at CLS Bank v. Alice, the Court concludes that intermediated settlement is an abstract idea because it is "a fundamental economic principle." So to use your example, data compression (replacing frequently-repeated sequ…
So now the court has to decided about how complex said algo is and weather or not it is simple enough to not deserve a patent. Basic Lossless compression can function like this: Imagine a string of 1's and 0's e.g. 10010000011000101111001 This string can be trivially compressed in a losses manor using this algo, every time the bit changes to a one or zeor, record the previous run of bits. So we would compress this st…
There's a good argument to be made that the cost of the line drawing exceeds the benefits. I don't think it does, generally, but maybe it does for software. That said, I think you should make some money if you invent LZW. I don't like the idea of an economy where you can't make money off R&D unless you package it into a product with lots of advertising and sales people. I don't think that creates the best incentives.