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The Supreme Court doesn't understand software

vox.com

1–10 of 64 posts

Re: The Supreme Court doesn't understand software

#2
>> If a sequence of conventional mathematical operations isn't patentable, then no software should enjoy patent protection.

I agree with the general idea of this piece, and I don't believe that software be patentable (or at least, software should be protected in a very narrow range of cases), but this argument doesn't hold up for me. For a person implementing a complex payroll system or a complicated user interface, the universal underlying mathematics are meaningless. Of all the time spent developing software, algorithm development is a tiny portion, much of which occurs in non-commercial environments anyway. It's comparable to the difference between the laws of physics and mechanical devices that operate as a consequence of those laws.

Re: The Supreme Court doesn't understand software

#3

>> If a sequence of conventional mathematical operations isn't patentable, then no software should enjoy patent protection. I agree with the general idea of this piece, and I don't believe that software be patentable (or at least, software should be protected in a very narrow range of cases), but this argument doesn't hold up for me. For a person implementing a complex payroll system or a complicated user interface,…

All software is algorithms, and the UI system can easily be tripped up by a patent on payroll systems precisely because of the universal underlying mathematics.

Re: The Supreme Court doesn't understand software

#4
> The problem is that "software" and "mathematical algorithm" are two terms for the same thing.

The Knuth quotation in the article, used in support of this position, actually seems to invalidate it in my view. "Algorithms are exactly as basic to programmers as words are to writers." The key being words. The value in a piece of literature has little to do with the individual words it's made from, just as a piece of software is clearly vastly more than the sum of its algorithmic parts.

Footnote: I mean this for multiple dimensions of 'value', not simply some measure of economic worth. Information processing and transformation ability, for one.

Re: The Supreme Court doesn't understand software

#5

>> If a sequence of conventional mathematical operations isn't patentable, then no software should enjoy patent protection. I agree with the general idea of this piece, and I don't believe that software be patentable (or at least, software should be protected in a very narrow range of cases), but this argument doesn't hold up for me. For a person implementing a complex payroll system or a complicated user interface,…

Yes, the decision in question even mentioned this. The Court acknowledges that in some fundamental sense all machines are just mathematics + physics. But for the purposes of patent law, the fact that all inventions are nothing more than discoveries of special cases of physics and mathematics, is not the relevant level of analysis. Rather, patent law presupposes that some novel combinations of such principles are "inventions", and the question is which ones.

Re: The Supreme Court doesn't understand software

#6
The author misses the gist of the Supreme Court's opinion in CLS Bank v. Alice:

> In Thursday's ruling, the court rejected a patent that claimed the concept of using a computer to hedge against "counterparty risk" — the risk of making a bargain and then having the other guy not pay up. The Supreme Court complained that in the process described in the patent, "each step does no more than require a generic computer to perform generic computer functions." Such a generic patent, the court said, isn't eligible for patent protection. The problem is that this criticism can be leveled at literally any software patent. At root, software is nothing more than a sequence of mathematical operations.

The Supreme Court in Alice came to two conclusions:

1) The concept of intermediated settlement is a "fundamental economic practice" and is so ineligible for patent protection under the judicially-created exception Section 101 for "abstract ideas."

2) The "method" and "system" claims in Alice Corp.'s patent amounted to nothing more than describing how to implement intermediated settlement on a generic computer in a generic way, and did not render the otherwise unpatentable abstract idea patentable.

The purpose of (2) is to foreclose on clever drafting that tries to get around the "abstract idea" limitation by framing it in terms of a specific implementation on a computer. What Alice says is that implementing the idea in a generic computer doesn't turn an abstract idea into a concrete implementation. It does not say that an otherwise patentable idea is rendered unpatentable because the patent describes how to implement the idea in a generic computer.

Re: The Supreme Court doesn't understand software

#7
I don't think you understand Math. I also don't think you understand legalese. I won't comment on the latter.

Software is fundamentally no different from a physical mechanism. (Math is everything.) Software is just more tunable.

The focus should be on eliminating bad patents or patents fully. Please don't muddy the issue.

Re: The Supreme Court doesn't understand software

#8
post #6

The author misses the gist of the Supreme Court's opinion in CLS Bank v. Alice: > In Thursday's ruling, the court rejected a patent that claimed the concept of using a computer to hedge against "counterparty risk" — the risk of making a bargain and then having the other guy not pay up. The Supreme Court complained that in the process described in the patent, "each step does no more than require a generic computer to…

OK, but the same logic can invalidate almost any software patent. Apple's "data detectors" patent, for example, claims the concept of detecting data in a document (an abstract idea, it seems to me) plus a generic description of the steps someone would have to take to implement this on a computer. A data compression patent would cover some mathematical principle (replace frequently-repeated sequences with a shorter representation) with some details about what steps you need to do to implement the idea. I think the court's reasoning could be plausibly read as invalidating all software patents.

Re: The Supreme Court doesn't understand software

#9
I was with him until: "The idea behind patents is to create a financial incentive to promote innovation: patents ensure that the inventor of a new idea can get compensated for it, rather than seeing her idea immediately ripped off by copycats."

The purpose of patents had nothing to do with compensation. It was already presumed that an inventor could sell an invention. The real purpose was to promote disclosure of how to make things. In other words to reveal what would otherwise be kept a trade secret. This fits well with the notion of "non-obvious to a person practiced in the art", which would preclude Amazons one-click. The idea was: Tell us how it's made in exchange for a monopoly for some number of years. Spreading knowledge is how you promote innovation.

Re: The Supreme Court doesn't understand software

#10
post #6

The author misses the gist of the Supreme Court's opinion in CLS Bank v. Alice: > In Thursday's ruling, the court rejected a patent that claimed the concept of using a computer to hedge against "counterparty risk" — the risk of making a bargain and then having the other guy not pay up. The Supreme Court complained that in the process described in the patent, "each step does no more than require a generic computer to…

I see that it's a vox.com article. I'm betting it's a Timothy B Lee article.

* checks *

Yep, Timothy B Lee. He's the Rush Limbaugh of Hacker News, telling us exactly what we want to hear, and the incredibly bad things that are possible, where "possible" means "doesn't defy the laws of physics."

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