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Are Dev Bootcamps a scam? A Hacker's perspective

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Re: Are Dev Bootcamps a scam? A Hacker's perspective

#11

Post by mickanio »

glanotte wrote: post #7

I recently met a graduate from dev bootcamp in Chicago. I had an opportunity to talk about various coding subjects. Was he a junior? Yes. However, he had a grasp of good design patterns, best practices and most importantly he had a desire to learn - I mean this guy was a sponge. I realize that I have a sample set of one, but based upon my interactions with him, I would say that this isn't a scam. It appears to give a…

Your sample size of one is bigger than the guy who wrote this article, who admits to not talking to any schools or graduates. Poorly researched speculation.

Re: Are Dev Bootcamps a scam? A Hacker's perspective

#13

Post by thedufer »

shawndrost wrote: post #2

I'm a cofounder at Hack Reactor, one of the schools that this article is about. > I also think good programming is a journey, not something that can be consumed and digested in a compacted 12-week course. I am in emphatic agreement -- we tell our students that the point of our school is to get to a spot where you can get paid to learn the rest, and we hold classes for alums to encourage ongoing education. > Personall…

Your argument on Quora seems to be "if I make up largely-irrelevant categories, and then make up numbers, our program looks good". I'm not sure how that's supposed to be convincing.

"self-instruction period" - this seems significantly less important than total time-sink, which I'd guess doesn't run in your favor at all.

"the percentage that end up writing code for a living" - I honestly don't think I've ever seen a selection bias this big. You mean people who shell out 5 figures for education are more interested than people who dabble for a couple of hours at no cost?

"average starting salary" - These are much more strongly tied to negotiating ability, etc. than programming ability, although I suppose it could be considered relevant (assuming that there's still a disparity after accounting for things like other experience, other skills, etc.).

I'd honestly be interested in some actual measure of programming ability. These are very hard to come by, but it seems to me that you're in a pretty good position to find a reasonable method.

Re: Are Dev Bootcamps a scam? A Hacker's perspective

#14

Post by petea »

This Dev Bootcamp phenomenon negatively affects Ruby and Ruby on Rails community disproportionately more than any other. I think pretty much all these training courses sell Ruby on Rails as the goto platform to learn. If this trend continues, Rails will be where PHP is now (no offence to smart people doing PHP, but you know what I mean).

Ruby/Ruby on Rails community isn't new to dealing with other people bad mouthing them. Remember Zed Shaw declaring "Rails Is A Ghetto" (http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/ruby/rails/is-a-ghetto) in 2007? Despite many haters, Rails penetrated through Java/.NET duopoly, and it has gained a lot of respect since then. All the bad mouthing didn't matter back then. Rails had so many talented people. Really smart people were coming from Java and .NET world into Rails and some of them were very passionate about making the technology better. This trends is on a notable decline now.

Re: Are Dev Bootcamps a scam? A Hacker's perspective

#15

Post by markkanof »

shawndrost wrote: post #6
petea wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These Yelp reviews mean very little to be honest. What kind of an idiot would write a bad review when 1. Writing bad review of the code training you got basically admits to others that your skills as a programmer is poor. 2. You risk souring interpersonal relationship you might have built going to the program. When you say the code training you got at X is bad, you are actually telling potential employers that people…

http://www.yelp.com/biz/kaplan-test-prep-and-admissions-san-... Edit: As pointed out below, this isn't a comparable institution. However, I think we can empirically test the question "Will students offer bad yelp reviews to schools that are their primary credential?" The answer seems to be yes: http://www.yelp.com/biz/bay-area-medical-academy-san-francis... http://www.yelp.com/biz/los-angeles-film-school-los-angeles…

That's a bad example.

When trying to get a job an interviewer could possibly see a bad review that a student left of your school and assume that means the student may not have the skills necessary for the job. Also, presumably at your school as students and instructors are interacting personal relationships are being developed (ie. networking) which could be beneficial in finding a job. If the student then gives a bad review of the school it could burn the bridges that they built while in the class.

On the other hand, when someone is grading a standardized test, they grade based on how you answered the test questions. They don't do an internet search to see what kind of preparation you had for the test. It's different than a job interview because a test is judging what skills and knowledge you are demonstrating at that point in time, whereas a job interview is judging both where you are at now and what you will be able to do in the future. Also, hopefully in a test prep class there is no direct advantage to be gained by networking as that would defeat the purpose of the test.

Re: Are Dev Bootcamps a scam? A Hacker's perspective

#16

Post by ScottWhigham »

Personally I'm against charging to teach others how to code.

You want someone to teach you to code, with which you could earn $100k/yr for 30+ more years, and you want them to volunteer their time to do that for you? I bet you do.

How many hours per week and for how long will it take someone to teach you "how to code"? Let's call it 100 hours just b/c we need to have some sort of cap. We'll use me as the example - I have a full time gig already (where I work 50-60 hour weeks), two young kids, and a wife - so my time is limited. But hey - 100 hours... Okay - let's do it.

The key question is, "Do I have time to 'train' two people at the same time, or can I only train one?" Probably one person - I don't have a training room set up FFS. So now we have a bottleneck.

"But, Scott, I'm talking about learning on the job - having one of your co-workers train you." Perfect - so you're working in such a great environment that your co-worker is (a) an expert coder, (b) an expert trainer, and (c) your company lets you spend 100+ hours together (200 man hours) of paid time for him to train you? Lucky you - that puts you in the 0.001%.

However, if the tables were turned (you were the expert employee who is teaching the youngster), wouldn't you be getting paid to train? Maybe you would donate your next 2 1/2 weeks just so you could train this young person?

Absurd statement.

Re: Are Dev Bootcamps a scam? A Hacker's perspective

#17

Post by malloreon »

Jayschwa wrote: post #4

I think if a dev bootcamp is confident, they won't charge their students unless they land a job. (Added: a few people have noted that App Academy is a bootcamp that uses this model.) I personally prefer the https://www.hackerschool.com/ model. It is not a "bootcamp". There is no structure, aside from what the students come up with themselves. It's a good place for both newbies and seasoned vets alike. It is free. The…

"I think if a dev bootcamp is confident, they won't charge their students unless they land a job."

App Academy in SF/NYC does this.

Note: I attended App Academy.

Re: Are Dev Bootcamps a scam? A Hacker's perspective

#19

Post by nezaj »

Jayschwa wrote: post #4

I think if a dev bootcamp is confident, they won't charge their students unless they land a job. (Added: a few people have noted that App Academy is a bootcamp that uses this model.) I personally prefer the https://www.hackerschool.com/ model. It is not a "bootcamp". There is no structure, aside from what the students come up with themselves. It's a good place for both newbies and seasoned vets alike. It is free. The…

I think if a dev bootcamp is confident, they won't charge their students unless they land a job.

You mean like App Academy? http://www.appacademy.io/#p-home

Edit: I attended App Academy as well

Re: Are Dev Bootcamps a scam? A Hacker's perspective

#20

Post by RogerL »

Jayschwa wrote: post #4

I think if a dev bootcamp is confident, they won't charge their students unless they land a job. (Added: a few people have noted that App Academy is a bootcamp that uses this model.) I personally prefer the https://www.hackerschool.com/ model. It is not a "bootcamp". There is no structure, aside from what the students come up with themselves. It's a good place for both newbies and seasoned vets alike. It is free. The…

"I think if a dev bootcamp is confident, they won't charge their students unless they land a job."

That sounds seriously un-optimal. Like it or not, some people will sign up and for whatever reason not get a job. They decide they hate programming. They have a mental health issue. They are not very smart. Parents get ill and they have to move across the country. And so on. So, to make the same money, the company will have to charge the successful students more money. Why should I, a smart student, pay more money and subsidize the untalented, unmotivated, or just unlucky student. It makes no sense why I would want that.

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