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Ukraine not invited to US-Russia peace talks, source tells BBC

bbc.com

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Re: Ukraine not invited to US-Russia peace talks, source tells BBC

#11

Post by rightbyte »

duxup wrote: post #5
rightbyte wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know why people are pretending to be surprised. When the Soviet Union or Uncle Sams props your army up to fight the other you were in for a bad time. There are like books written about events like these.

I think if you're fighting off a straight up invasion you take the help you can get. That's it. This isn't your typical proxy war situation where US and Russia just pick sides in an internal conflict. This was something else.

I don't see how the political establishment was strong enough to do anything but being played, so contemplating whether accepting help or on the contrary playing along with the "special operation" thing seems like counterfactual history to me, even though such discussions usually are quite interesting.

Re: Ukraine not invited to US-Russia peace talks, source tells BBC

#14

Post by zarzavat »

riehwvfbk wrote: post #9
duxup wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think if you're fighting off a straight up invasion you take the help you can get. That's it. This isn't your typical proxy war situation where US and Russia just pick sides in an internal conflict. This was something else.

You were told this was something else, and it resonated better because the people involved were culturally close to Europeans. But in reality was the messaging all that different from "Operation Iraqi Freedom"? Both were fights for automotive power sources dressed up as a liberation movement.

Uh yes? Zelenskyy was a democratically elected leader and Saddam was a tyrant.

Re: Ukraine not invited to US-Russia peace talks, source tells BBC

#15

Post by inverted_flag »

duxup wrote: post #10
riehwvfbk wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You were told this was something else, and it resonated better because the people involved were culturally close to Europeans. But in reality was the messaging all that different from "Operation Iraqi Freedom"? Both were fights for automotive power sources dressed up as a liberation movement.

I don't know what any of that means. What is "both fights" what are "automotive power sources"?

He’s straining to draw a false equivalence between the Iraq war and the Ukraine war.

Re: Ukraine not invited to US-Russia peace talks, source tells BBC

#17

Post by ekianjo »

whandl wrote: post #12

[flagged]

> Moreover, the premise of Hegseth is a lie. The EU has spent more on Ukraine aid than the US

Nope. In military aid his claim is correct, you can see it from your own source you linked:

https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-s...

Only if you include refugee aid then the EU amount exceeds the US, but that has no bearing on the outcome of the war (this is where most of the EU funding goes to). What matters to win a war is military aid, and the EU has provided a fraction of what the US has given so far.

Re: Ukraine not invited to US-Russia peace talks, source tells BBC

#18

Post by rightbyte »

zarzavat wrote: post #14
riehwvfbk wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You were told this was something else, and it resonated better because the people involved were culturally close to Europeans. But in reality was the messaging all that different from "Operation Iraqi Freedom"? Both were fights for automotive power sources dressed up as a liberation movement.

Uh yes? Zelenskyy was a democratically elected leader and Saddam was a tyrant.

Both were propped up militarily by the US and ditched when convenient.

Re: Ukraine not invited to US-Russia peace talks, source tells BBC

#19

Post by ekianjo »

inverted_flag wrote: post #3

These aren’t peace talks then, they’re talks on how to divide up the spoils.

> These aren’t peace talks then, they’re talks on how to divide up the spoils.

That's what peace talks are all about. Do you think Japan and Germany had a say in what they had to give up at the end of WW2?

Re: Ukraine not invited to US-Russia peace talks, source tells BBC

#20

Post by defrost »

ekianjo wrote: post #19
inverted_flag wrote: post #3

These aren’t peace talks then, they’re talks on how to divide up the spoils.

> These aren’t peace talks then, they’re talks on how to divide up the spoils. That's what peace talks are all about. Do you think Japan and Germany had a say in what they had to give up at the end of WW2?

Both Japan and Germany attacked other countries to expand their empire.

Like Russia in this conflict.

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