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The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

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Re: The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

#11
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this the same system used by Boston MBTA? I was surprised to see single-use tap cards when I visited there for the first time yesterday. I wondered why the ticket isn't reloadable.

Most people who live in Boston use the reloadable CharlieCard ( https://www.mbta.com/fares/charliecard ) - these report as Mifare Classic 1k, which is a similar chip There are single-use fares as well, the "CharlieTicket" that you might've encountered. More CharlieCard NFC info: https://medium.com/@bobbyrsec/operation-charlie-hacking-the-... https://media.defcon.org/DEF%20CON%2031/DEF%20CON%2031%20pre...

Yeah I figured but you can't buy a charliecard online to load into your smartphone wallet, and I only needed it the once, and since it took more than an hour to get to Cambridge due to some combination of circus acts I used Blue bikes for the remainder of the day.

Re: The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

#13
Comparing Montreal subway with Vancouver's skytrain:

- Montreals subway stations have this gritty, distinctively french atmosphere i loved it.

- Vancouvers above/below stations have no soul, distinctively anglo but above ground ones i liked.

- Montreal train cars use rubber wheels to my shock! Extremely loud.

- Vancouver train cars use some sort of electric system which im not familiar with ( have a few variants (newer hyundai rotem cars, old ones: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_BoeXqaV9c)

- Montreal subway does not cover the entire region like Vancouver's skytrain. Getting around is difficult without uber. Road conditions are horrible (pot holes remain unfixed for decades, city went broke hosting olympics long time ago), I just shudder how you can get around during the winter.

But the biggest shock was that in some instances, it was faster for me to walk then walk to the station and wait for the subway.

- Arriving at YVR: Skytrain runs directly from airport to a satellite city where its numerous public buses cover almost the entire MV. I could just tap through the toll gate with my credit card and wait for a bus which arrives on time quite frequently.

- Arrriving at YUL: Have to take a bus from airport for 30 minutes to Montreal but doesn't seem to respect time schedule. Got off somewhere in Montreal I don't remember (there was a large open artsy area) tried to wait for a bus but never came, gave up, got uber.

Re: The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

#17

This wasn’t super obvious to me until later in the article but this is about the single use tickets. Neat stuff, though I can’t say I love the concept of e-waste NFC.

It isn’t different from other anti-counterfeiting measures, the printing just happens to be really small and electrically react to certain frequencies.

Part of the “software eating the world” story is the decreased cost of precision that enabled the hardware substrate of software to be inexpensively and ubiquitously included in any mass produced object.

Re: The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

#18

The diameter of a neuron's axon is about 1 μm, this is getting close to biological levels of miniaturization.

It is using a relatively old manufacturing process. It may be small but it is because modern chips are small, not because this is a feat of engineering where they've achieved incredible compute densities.

Re: The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

#19
post #2

Author here for all your NFC chip questions :-)

How difficult is it to clone MIFARE Ultralight EV1 chips? You mention the UID is signed, can you simply copy this signature? Do you just need to buy one of the magical chips of the same design, that allow uid/serials to be written? What is the actual mechanism behind the DESFire and other secure NFC chips that prevents cloning?

I haven't really looked into the security aspects. I think that you could clone one of the Ultralight chips, but it wouldn't gain you anything because the security is in the backend. It's a lot like a printed concert ticket or boarding pass. You could print as many as you want, but the ticket is still good for just one admission.

The DESFire and other secure chips contain a cryptographic key that you can't access. Without the key, you can't make a clone of the chip. The cryptography provides authentication and encryption that you don't get with the cheap Ultralight chip.

I think this is all market segmentation; they don't put more security into the Ultralight chip because they don't want to cannibalize their higher-end sales.

Re: The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

#20

On the topic of NFC: my iPhone ApplePay thing taps so much more reliably than any of my credit or debit cards. Is this because it has its own power supply and doesn’t have to first be powered up by the machine?

Additional conjecture: a device with upgradable software can take advantage of updates to readers and protocols. Whereas the physical card is stuck at the version it was created with.
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