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Modern human incursion into Neanderthal territories 54k years ago at Mandrin

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Re: Modern human incursion into Neanderthal territories 54k years ago at Mandrin

#11

Post by sillysaurusx »

tshaddox wrote: post #9
sillysaurusx wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that were true, I'm not sure we'd use the term "extinct" to refer to Neanderthals. (Some) humans are willing to mate with just about anything. There would be human-dog hybrids if it wasn't genetically impossible, as unsettling as that thought is. Seems more likely that we treated Neanderthals as humans do with other outsiders: we exterminated them and took their resources. Word has it that you can find their desce…

> If that were true, I'm not sure we'd use the term "extinct" to refer to Neanderthals. Why not? Lots of our ancestors are extinct.

You're right. I'm simply mistaken. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_habilis

I like that Homo habilis translates to "handy man" since they were the first to use stone tools. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_evolution#Evolution_of_g... is also an interesting read.

Re: Modern human incursion into Neanderthal territories 54k years ago at Mandrin

#16

Post by dang »

kkjjkgjjgg wrote: post #12

Quoted post unavailable.

"Eschew flamebait. Avoid unrelated controversies and generic tangents."

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Edit: it looks like your account is using HN primarily for ideological battle, or at least is coming close to it. That's the line at which we ban accounts, regardless of what ideology they're for or against. It's not what this site is for, and it destroys what it is for.

If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.

Re: Modern human incursion into Neanderthal territories 54k years ago at Mandrin

#17

Post by ivan_gammel »

lqet wrote: post #5

I would love to know what early Sapiens thought about the Neanderthals. Did they see them as that other tribe that is very strong, but acts a bit foolishly sometimes? As we have been the only remaining member of the Homo species for thousands of years now, living side by side with creatures that are only quite like us is an experience that has been lost in the collective human memory. I think it is pretty likely that…

> I never understood why most people assume that humans today are, on average, more intelligent than our ancestors 40,000 years ago.

Evolution of our species continues and some changes in our anatomy are being observed even in the last 100 years of our history. The evolutionary pressure never stopped, it just changed its form. We are no longer competing with nature, we are competing with ourselves, adjusting our diet, exposure to seasonal weather, sun and fresh air, physical activities and mental challenges. I would say yes, we may have become more intelligent, even if we lost our connection to nature. We just use our intelligence for different things: our society, our language are much more sophisticated, our abstract thinking and creativity have advanced, some of us may have got more control over our bodies (I’m pretty sure modern athletes are more developed than our ancestors).

Re: Modern human incursion into Neanderthal territories 54k years ago at Mandrin

#18

Post by mc32 »

sillysaurusx wrote: post #7
lqet wrote: post #5

I would love to know what early Sapiens thought about the Neanderthals. Did they see them as that other tribe that is very strong, but acts a bit foolishly sometimes? As we have been the only remaining member of the Homo species for thousands of years now, living side by side with creatures that are only quite like us is an experience that has been lost in the collective human memory. I think it is pretty likely that…

If that were true, I'm not sure we'd use the term "extinct" to refer to Neanderthals. (Some) humans are willing to mate with just about anything. There would be human-dog hybrids if it wasn't genetically impossible, as unsettling as that thought is. Seems more likely that we treated Neanderthals as humans do with other outsiders: we exterminated them and took their resources. Word has it that you can find their desce…

Isn't it possible that humans simply outbred them? You don't have to "get rid" of a population if you can interbreed and outbreed a given stock, no? It's not like one day they exist and the next they don't; rather, they slowly get absorbed into the larger, faster breeding pop. Or even disease they had no natural immunity for. I presume there would be some conflict as even among human pops conflict is a given --but not necessary one to the end.

Re: Modern human incursion into Neanderthal territories 54k years ago at Mandrin

#19

Post by sillysaurusx »

mc32 wrote: post #18
sillysaurusx wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that were true, I'm not sure we'd use the term "extinct" to refer to Neanderthals. (Some) humans are willing to mate with just about anything. There would be human-dog hybrids if it wasn't genetically impossible, as unsettling as that thought is. Seems more likely that we treated Neanderthals as humans do with other outsiders: we exterminated them and took their resources. Word has it that you can find their desce…

Isn't it possible that humans simply outbred them? You don't have to "get rid" of a population if you can interbreed and outbreed a given stock, no? It's not like one day they exist and the next they don't; rather, they slowly get absorbed into the larger, faster breeding pop. Or even disease they had no natural immunity for. I presume there would be some conflict as even among human pops conflict is a given --but no…

It's possible. It's just one of those explanations that we'd really love to believe, since the alternative is so unthinkable. It's been a hobby of mine to be skeptical of it.

Even Kurzgesagt mentioned in passing that we're not sure if it was due to "a series of minor genocides."

- https://youtu.be/dGiQaabX3_o?t=79

- https://youtu.be/CWu29PRCUvQ?t=165

If anyone knows of breadcrumbs to follow, please chime in. Genetic testing implies it should be possible to figure out how much interbreeding took place. We seem to be able to trace extinction events with some degree of accuracy, so it would be surprising if a genocide-type extinction event was easy to confuse with interbreeding.

Re: Modern human incursion into Neanderthal territories 54k years ago at Mandrin

#20

Post by stevenwoo »

trinsic2 wrote: post #10
trevize1138 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole story gets more and more interesting and complex over time as we uncover it. No single "missing link." No simplistic story of homo sapiens coming in and wiping out neanderthals. A recent documentary I saw painted this very messy picture of migration in-and-out of various parts of Eurasia, back to Africa, back out and a general genetic mixing all-around. Overall modern humans out-competed neanderthals but al…

Can you post some info on that doc? Fascinating stuff.

This was covered via a historic overview of genetics in Carl Zimmer's 2018 book She Has Her Mother's Laugh towards the end as he puts it all together and explains how scientists figured it out. IIRC some neanderthal and denisova bones still had DNA material.
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