More on Vaccine Side Effects • Hacker News Board

Re: More on Vaccine Side Effects

#11

Post by xeromal » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 5:05 PM UTC

I like the process the author walked through. I'll paste one of the paragraphs.

"So as the CDC link shows, the choice is clear: mass vaccination does indeed have rare side effects, but mass infection with the coronavirus (which is the only other choice) is absolutely worse. And to reiterate a point that’s been made many times, the faster we can vaccinate people, the lower the chances we have of encountering a new variant form that will make everything even worse. We have to get as many doses out to the world as we possibly can, as quickly as we can."

Re: More on Vaccine Side Effects

#12

Post by awoimbee » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 5:06 PM UTC

sofixa wrote: post #5

phtrivier wrote: post #3

I would have noded and approved this article 24 hours ago. Now vaccination is about to be made de-facto mandatory in France (with a snarky timing that will prevent some people from getting all their shots before restrictions pop in.) ; and I know that I'm going to be a bit less receptive, because of the tension between "this is sane science" and "this is a terrible bet on the future from a politician that got a lot o…

> with a snarky timing that will prevent some people from getting all their shots before restrictions pop in. It's not mandatory, unless you consider restaurants and travel to be necessities one needs ( and you can still use a test in lieu of a vaccine certificate, and tests are still free)

I could maybe agree if the restrictions were put in the winter, but not in the summer.

People have already booked their vacation, and now they need to do a PCR every 2 days to take a train, enjoy restaurants ? That's insane !

To get the "pass sanitaire" you need: first shot -> wait 3 weeks -> second shot -> wait 2 weeks. That's more than a month !

Re: More on Vaccine Side Effects

#13

Post by saiya-jin » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 5:09 PM UTC

djrogers wrote: post #6

phtrivier wrote: post #3

I would have noded and approved this article 24 hours ago. Now vaccination is about to be made de-facto mandatory in France (with a snarky timing that will prevent some people from getting all their shots before restrictions pop in.) ; and I know that I'm going to be a bit less receptive, because of the tension between "this is sane science" and "this is a terrible bet on the future from a politician that got a lot o…

> The cognitive dissonance is not particularly pleasant It's not unexpected though, is it? Certain personality types, and to a large extent certain cultures, reflexively push back when forced to do something, even if it's a Good Idea or something they'd do or have already done anyway. While that reflex may have downsides (like the current situation with vaccines), from a societal standpoint, it's a strong check again…

I've been like that in my natural setting, meaning whole childhood and well into maturity. Meaning even mostly cool stuff in school was hated with passion, took me quite some time to find my way back to it (ie biology, geography, chemistry, native language).

Its a stupid emotional knee-jerk reaction. Happy to got over it over time. Maybe those potential benefits only manifest on large-enough scale of population, don't know and don't want to try.

Science, on the other hand, has practically never failed me (since I also understand probability and downsides).

The problem these days, from my perspective, large enough population was lured into 'alt-science' which is not science at all. It works on emotional level, so no rational argument will persuade them, in contrary. That's a dark path to take, and the longer one goes on it, the harder is to ever get back.

There is no benefit to civilization that I can see, I hope to change my mind on this over time. Just a potential rift across most of the world (maybe apart from places like China, which benefits greatly from the self-inflicted mess western countries are in).

Re: More on Vaccine Side Effects

#14

Post by standardUser » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 5:10 PM UTC

herbst wrote: post #7

So the fact that we as world do a really bad job at vaccinating in countries with lower income will ultimately assure that new strains show up that are even more resistant against the vaccine? Is there any data if we are even fast enough? I mean some people are closer to their third shot than others getting their first in developing countries.

That may be the least of our worries. In the wealthy countries that now have universal access to free vaccines, we're seeing large populations that can't crack 50% of people vaccinated. So, even if we had an infinite supply of vaccines we could beam down from space to anyone on the planet who wanted it, we'd still run into the problem of too many people not wanting it.

Re: More on Vaccine Side Effects

#15

Post by ben_w » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 5:10 PM UTC

briantakita wrote: post #2

Now that the vaccine injuries can no longer be hidden from the public, the industry seeks to capture the discussion to retain their influence on public opinion. The core of the argument is risk assessment based on the statistics that they provided. The problem is, if they were lying about existence vaccine injuries, what is to stop them from lying about the statistics? A better solution to restore a proper feedback m…

There are many countries with many different jurisdictions and drug safety requirements, and not all vaccines passed all jurisdictions’ rules.

Also, I’m no lawyer, but I would expect an act of negligence — as compared to “risks inherent in bringing forward new products to prevent severe cases of a virulent disease with known severe side effects in a significant minority of those not killed by it” — is already frowned upon by the law, and criminal misconduct already comes with prison time?

Even in the most pessimistic assumptions of vaccine safety, the disease is much worse than the cure, and yet I don’t believe anyone is seriously suggesting D Trump or B Johnson goes to The Hague for an unfriendly chat about Crimes Against Humanity.

Re: More on Vaccine Side Effects

#16

Post by beiller » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 5:12 PM UTC

xeromal wrote: post #11

I like the process the author walked through. I'll paste one of the paragraphs. "So as the CDC link shows, the choice is clear: mass vaccination does indeed have rare side effects, but mass infection with the coronavirus (which is the only other choice) is absolutely worse. And to reiterate a point that’s been made many times, the faster we can vaccinate people, the lower the chances we have of encountering a new var…

I am mostly on board with the vaccine, going to get my 2nd shot soon. But I do have a worry; This is setting a precedent where instead of treating disease now, we will preemptively vaccinate. It actually seems morally wrong to not take these steps to preemptively vaccinate. But will all these new vaccinations cause a virus to adapt to be more viral, similarly to how antibiotics has the potential to make bacteria resistant?

Re: More on Vaccine Side Effects

#17

Post by nathanaldensr » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 5:19 PM UTC

djrogers wrote: post #6

phtrivier wrote: post #3

I would have noded and approved this article 24 hours ago. Now vaccination is about to be made de-facto mandatory in France (with a snarky timing that will prevent some people from getting all their shots before restrictions pop in.) ; and I know that I'm going to be a bit less receptive, because of the tension between "this is sane science" and "this is a terrible bet on the future from a politician that got a lot o…

> The cognitive dissonance is not particularly pleasant It's not unexpected though, is it? Certain personality types, and to a large extent certain cultures, reflexively push back when forced to do something, even if it's a Good Idea or something they'd do or have already done anyway. While that reflex may have downsides (like the current situation with vaccines), from a societal standpoint, it's a strong check again…

This is exactly correct. The modern assumption by certain ideologies that evil doesn't exist is at the root of this. Yes, there are people that will lie, use their credentials, use existing seemingly impartial processes, use psychological tricks, etc. to trick you and control you. Yes, these people exist! So many people are very, very naive, having never seen real evil. Evil has become abstracted--a meme. Do we have roving bands of mercenaries looking to kill us and take our stuff here in the United States? No, and in some ways, that's become a bad thing. People don't know how to identify real evil anymore!

Re: More on Vaccine Side Effects

#18

Post by kadoban » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 5:23 PM UTC

beiller wrote: post #16

xeromal wrote: post #11

I like the process the author walked through. I'll paste one of the paragraphs. "So as the CDC link shows, the choice is clear: mass vaccination does indeed have rare side effects, but mass infection with the coronavirus (which is the only other choice) is absolutely worse. And to reiterate a point that’s been made many times, the faster we can vaccinate people, the lower the chances we have of encountering a new var…

I am mostly on board with the vaccine, going to get my 2nd shot soon. But I do have a worry; This is setting a precedent where instead of treating disease now, we will preemptively vaccinate. It actually seems morally wrong to not take these steps to preemptively vaccinate. But will all these new vaccinations cause a virus to adapt to be more viral, similarly to how antibiotics has the potential to make bacteria resi…

The big issue with bacterial resistance to antibiotics is that there's a quite limited number of antibiotics, sometimes ~one that works without terrible side effects, so resistance is a _big_ deal.

Vaccines don't work like that, there's an effectively unlimited number of vaccines, because they're tailored to the virus. It's still a problem if a virus mutates around your vaccine, but you're not worse off for trying.

I am not a virologist, but it doesn't seem to make common sense to me that we're safer if we let a virus spread and just treat it, instead of vaccinating. The more of the virus that's out there, spreading and multiplying, the greater the opportunity for problematic mutations to develop/spread.

That also assumes that there's a good treatment, and sufficient capacity to treat everyone quickly, otherwise there's really not a choice there.

Re: More on Vaccine Side Effects

#19

Post by nimih » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 5:24 PM UTC

beiller wrote: post #16

xeromal wrote: post #11

I like the process the author walked through. I'll paste one of the paragraphs. "So as the CDC link shows, the choice is clear: mass vaccination does indeed have rare side effects, but mass infection with the coronavirus (which is the only other choice) is absolutely worse. And to reiterate a point that’s been made many times, the faster we can vaccinate people, the lower the chances we have of encountering a new var…

I am mostly on board with the vaccine, going to get my 2nd shot soon. But I do have a worry; This is setting a precedent where instead of treating disease now, we will preemptively vaccinate. It actually seems morally wrong to not take these steps to preemptively vaccinate. But will all these new vaccinations cause a virus to adapt to be more viral, similarly to how antibiotics has the potential to make bacteria resi…

> But will all these new vaccinations cause a virus to adapt to be more viral, similarly to how antibiotics has the potential to make bacteria resistant?

Maybe, but it's not a big deal.[1]

[1] https://www.pnas.org/content/115/51/12878

Re: More on Vaccine Side Effects

#20

Post by gjulianm » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 5:25 PM UTC

beiller wrote: post #16

xeromal wrote: post #11

I like the process the author walked through. I'll paste one of the paragraphs. "So as the CDC link shows, the choice is clear: mass vaccination does indeed have rare side effects, but mass infection with the coronavirus (which is the only other choice) is absolutely worse. And to reiterate a point that’s been made many times, the faster we can vaccinate people, the lower the chances we have of encountering a new var…

I am mostly on board with the vaccine, going to get my 2nd shot soon. But I do have a worry; This is setting a precedent where instead of treating disease now, we will preemptively vaccinate. It actually seems morally wrong to not take these steps to preemptively vaccinate. But will all these new vaccinations cause a virus to adapt to be more viral, similarly to how antibiotics has the potential to make bacteria resi…

> This is setting a precedent where instead of treating disease now, we will preemptively vaccinate

This isn't setting any precedent. Polio, tetanus, hepatitis A/B, rubella, measles... Quite a lot of diseases where vaccination is the preferred method versus better treatment.