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Egyptian Circumnavigation of Africa ~600 BC

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Re: Egyptian Circumnavigation of Africa ~600 BC

#11

Post by dpeck »

That is interesting and from a very layman’s understanding it would be unexpected.

I’m just a casual fan of history and have listened to a lot of lectures for Mediterranean history around bronze age, and my takeaway was that the consensus among Egyptologists was that ancient Egyptians never got very good at navigation & seamanship because they didn’t have to be. They had wind to go upstream on the Nile and current to go downstream and hugged close to the coast as a rule.

Maybe one-off journeys happened? Handfuls of people do things completely out of the ordinary for their culture from time to time. But if someone did it, it didn’t make much difference back home.

Re: Egyptian Circumnavigation of Africa ~600 BC

#13

Post by jandrese »

jccooper wrote: post #4
tgb wrote: post #2

The ancient Egyptian (or Persians?) built a Suez canal predecessor? Incredible. Is it a tourist attraction? And imagine building it only to realize that the surface height of the sea and the Nile don't match. Oops! Also I like that the parts of the circumnavigation tale that Herotodus thought unbelievable (sun on the "wrong" side) actually now make it more clearly true and not just another of Herotodus's exaggeration…

Egyptian rulers of the Middle Kingdom, New Kingdom, Persians, Greeks, (probably) Romans, and Fatimids all dug or redug (and probably used, at least briefly) a canal or canals from the Nile to the Great Bitter Lakes and Red Sea. The Ptolemaic version even apparently had a lock to prevent salt water intrusion. It went in and out of service (depending mostly, it seems, on ability to maintain it) until it was closed 767…

The Suez canal requires constant maintenance (dredging) to avoid being swallowed up by the desert. It is not hard to imagine most evidence of a canal that stopped maintenance in 767 being lost to time.

Re: Egyptian Circumnavigation of Africa ~600 BC

#14

Post by WinstonSmith84 »

edgyquant wrote: post #8
WinstonSmith84 wrote: post #3

I'm blown away that the Phoenicians (w/ Egyptians) circumnavigated Africa in 600BC and ... during 2000 years, it was assumed that it was a legend, until being proved otherwise only in 1488 - just a few years before America was (officially) discovered.

I’m not convinced they did. Not only is this an account by a notorious “liar” (as herodotus is known) but the Egyptians were notoriously bad at sailing due to being spoiled by the Nile. When they travelled in the Red Sea they famously hugged the coast stopping at sundown and they hardly ever went far out on the Mediterranean.

I do not have the knowledge to judge Herodotus (for his other stories), however even if he lied purposefully on that one, he is right about many things that practically none could have guessed with the current knowledge of his time.

1- the position of the sun when navigating in the southern hemisphere.

2- claiming a journey of 3 years

It could be a coincidence of course. But then that would make from him a very smart and lucky liar - smart because he had to know the earth was round and lucky, because 3 years, it's what it would likely take to do it.

Re: Egyptian Circumnavigation of Africa ~600 BC

#15

Post by turndown »

edgyquant wrote: post #8
WinstonSmith84 wrote: post #3

I'm blown away that the Phoenicians (w/ Egyptians) circumnavigated Africa in 600BC and ... during 2000 years, it was assumed that it was a legend, until being proved otherwise only in 1488 - just a few years before America was (officially) discovered.

I’m not convinced they did. Not only is this an account by a notorious “liar” (as herodotus is known) but the Egyptians were notoriously bad at sailing due to being spoiled by the Nile. When they travelled in the Red Sea they famously hugged the coast stopping at sundown and they hardly ever went far out on the Mediterranean.

I'm not sure it's true either, but the fact that his account does correctly describe the position of the sun in the sky and the fact that Herodotus includes this information to discount the story to me tells of at least some kind of trip down to the southern portion of Africa. Total circumnavigation, though, I do doubt.

Edit: Also, it wasn't Egyptians that did this but Phoenicians at the order of the Pharoah.

Re: Egyptian Circumnavigation of Africa ~600 BC

#16

Post by guga42k »

edgyquant wrote: post #8
WinstonSmith84 wrote: post #3

I'm blown away that the Phoenicians (w/ Egyptians) circumnavigated Africa in 600BC and ... during 2000 years, it was assumed that it was a legend, until being proved otherwise only in 1488 - just a few years before America was (officially) discovered.

I’m not convinced they did. Not only is this an account by a notorious “liar” (as herodotus is known) but the Egyptians were notoriously bad at sailing due to being spoiled by the Nile. When they travelled in the Red Sea they famously hugged the coast stopping at sundown and they hardly ever went far out on the Mediterranean.

well, this trip sounds way more plausible than Troy/Iliad story. And Troy was discovered based on folk tales more or less. So who knows, may be Egyptians did it.

ps: for Russian speaking crowd: there is a YA book https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Land_of_Foam which is a fiction version of would-be such a trip.

Re: Egyptian Circumnavigation of Africa ~600 BC

#17

Post by finiteseries »

edgyquant wrote: post #8
WinstonSmith84 wrote: post #3

I'm blown away that the Phoenicians (w/ Egyptians) circumnavigated Africa in 600BC and ... during 2000 years, it was assumed that it was a legend, until being proved otherwise only in 1488 - just a few years before America was (officially) discovered.

I’m not convinced they did. Not only is this an account by a notorious “liar” (as herodotus is known) but the Egyptians were notoriously bad at sailing due to being spoiled by the Nile. When they travelled in the Red Sea they famously hugged the coast stopping at sundown and they hardly ever went far out on the Mediterranean.

The Egyptians weren’t sailing, Herodotus claims it was a fleet manned by Phoenician crew.

Re: Egyptian Circumnavigation of Africa ~600 BC

#18

Post by hahahasure »

tgb wrote: post #2

The ancient Egyptian (or Persians?) built a Suez canal predecessor? Incredible. Is it a tourist attraction? And imagine building it only to realize that the surface height of the sea and the Nile don't match. Oops! Also I like that the parts of the circumnavigation tale that Herotodus thought unbelievable (sun on the "wrong" side) actually now make it more clearly true and not just another of Herotodus's exaggeration…

What, you don't think the greatest harp player can summon a dolphin and ride them across the sea?

That said, his political stories are entertaining, and the philosophy is interesting. It just hurts reading wikipedia and seeing how his account vaguely lines up with archeology.

Re: Egyptian Circumnavigation of Africa ~600 BC

#19

Post by detritus »

WinstonSmith84 wrote: post #14
edgyquant wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not convinced they did. Not only is this an account by a notorious “liar” (as herodotus is known) but the Egyptians were notoriously bad at sailing due to being spoiled by the Nile. When they travelled in the Red Sea they famously hugged the coast stopping at sundown and they hardly ever went far out on the Mediterranean.

I do not have the knowledge to judge Herodotus (for his other stories), however even if he lied purposefully on that one, he is right about many things that practically none could have guessed with the current knowledge of his time. 1- the position of the sun when navigating in the southern hemisphere. 2- claiming a journey of 3 years It could be a coincidence of course. But then that would make from him a very smart…

As for one, at least, if the Ancient Greeks and Egyptians knew the world was spherical (as they did, and had an approximate measure of its dimension), this could be easily predicted and might make part of whatever speculative discussion they had that was the equivalence of HN or general interested internerdery here.

The second is harder to find an excuse for.

(O/T) Of interest to me is something I learned from HN - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cape_Bojador - a large rocky shoal off the North Western African coast that scuppered many attempts at sailing around that area. It was, somewhat naively, the first thing in my long life that made me really appreciate how challenging old sea faring would have been.

Re: Egyptian Circumnavigation of Africa ~600 BC

#20

Post by mytailorisrich »

dpeck wrote: post #11

That is interesting and from a very layman’s understanding it would be unexpected. I’m just a casual fan of history and have listened to a lot of lectures for Mediterranean history around bronze age, and my takeaway was that the consensus among Egyptologists was that ancient Egyptians never got very good at navigation & seamanship because they didn’t have to be. They had wind to go upstream on the Nile and current to…

The article quotes Herodotus as saying that the Egyptians hired a Phoenician crew for this. Phoenicians criss-crossed the Med for trade and settlements.
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