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On Norbert Wiener's Relationship with Bertrand Russell

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Re: On Norbert Wiener's Relationship with Bertrand Russell

#11

Post by jpfr »

anon_tor_12345 wrote: post #8
ggm wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think its hard. I just think they don't. I think it's really sad how few senior scientists with standing do this. They seem to lack the fortitude to do something, which isn't that hard when it comes down to it. I don't blame fresh starts who go for the lucrative roles, they need the money. Once you're established, finding a hill to stand on and choosing to stand on it seems to get .. less likely? You made the…

>CompSci and AI profs sticking it to the man (faang) about things there are very frequently articles/gossip on quittings/firings of famous researchers. timnit gebru is a recent example. >Norbert Weiner was apex in his field. i wouldn't be so quick to lionize him - he was also not very kind to walter pitts and possibly contributed to his suicide http://nautil.us/issue/21/information/the-man-who-tried-to-r...

> he was also not very kind to walter pitts and possibly contributed to his suicide

Wiener's wife told him a lie about Pitts. She invented an indecency involving Wiender's daugher. Both Wiener and Pitts never found out the truth about who ended their relationship.

Re: On Norbert Wiener's Relationship with Bertrand Russell

#12

Post by dluan »

hilbert42 wrote: post #3

If you are interested in or have done some philosophy then you'll find this article fascinating and informative. It covers aspects of the strained relationship between Bertrand Russell and Norbert Wiener that I can't ever remember reading about in other short biographies of the pre-WWI Cambridge philosophers and mathematicians. Similarly, the somewhat awkward and prickly relationship been Russell and Wittgenstein is…

Paul Halmos also famously did not get along well with Norbert Wiener, apparently they would argue a lot.

Re: On Norbert Wiener's Relationship with Bertrand Russell

#13

Post by boygobbo »

Guthur wrote: post #10
ggm wrote: post #2

Norbert Weiner is a standout of modern computing/mathematics because he took a principled stand on the consequences of his research, and decided to move fields because he didn't want his work to directly relate to military applications. There are very few people of his standing in science at that time, and I believe since, with the fortitude to resist temptation to take the high paying gig despite the moral implicati…

Was it a moral stance or the fact he had a great detestation of human suffering, as alluded to in the article. Someone of that brilliance would quite easily be able to draw the link between their work and future suffering. It's possible this is a moral stance but I'm not so sure, it some what feels like a pain reaction. I must admit I've had the same thought about my own actions, I hate to see people suffer too the p…

Well, we often talk about morality in terms of our emotional and physical response - e.g. revulsion ('disgusting behaviour'), fear ('recoiling in horror') and pain ('pangs of conscience'), etc. It's also pretty difficult to determine whether Wiener's detestation of suffering was the cause of his moral stance or vice versa.

I would argue that whatever the associated reaction/cause, the outcome is a moral stance as it influenced his decisions based on the consequences his actions might have on other people. OTOH, if Wiener felt bad about other people's suffering but it didn't affect his choices, it wouldn't be a moral stance.

Re: On Norbert Wiener's Relationship with Bertrand Russell

#14

Post by boygobbo »

ggm wrote: post #2

Norbert Weiner is a standout of modern computing/mathematics because he took a principled stand on the consequences of his research, and decided to move fields because he didn't want his work to directly relate to military applications. There are very few people of his standing in science at that time, and I believe since, with the fortitude to resist temptation to take the high paying gig despite the moral implicati…

And let's not forget that Bertrand Russell was also a very principled man - he was imprisoned for his pacifism during World War I and for his involvement in anti-nuclear campaigning in 1961 (aged 89!).

Re: On Norbert Wiener's Relationship with Bertrand Russell

#15

Post by IndySun »

I found this article another gem from the numerous gems concerning Russell. I feel I must point out, as a fully paid up 'fan' of Russell's, and because people here have mentioned 'principles', he misstepped on race, perhaps (kindly) an indication of the sheer engrained blanket racism still prevalent in the world throughout the 20th century.

For those evermore curious...

https://studsterkel.wfmt.com/programs/interview-bertrand-rus...

Re: On Norbert Wiener's Relationship with Bertrand Russell

#17

Post by pessimizer »

jpfr wrote: post #11
anon_tor_12345 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>CompSci and AI profs sticking it to the man (faang) about things there are very frequently articles/gossip on quittings/firings of famous researchers. timnit gebru is a recent example. >Norbert Weiner was apex in his field. i wouldn't be so quick to lionize him - he was also not very kind to walter pitts and possibly contributed to his suicide http://nautil.us/issue/21/information/the-man-who-tried-to-r...

> he was also not very kind to walter pitts and possibly contributed to his suicide Wiener's wife told him a lie about Pitts. She invented an indecency involving Wiender's daugher. Both Wiener and Pitts never found out the truth about who ended their relationship.

And how do we know that it was a lie? Did she admit it later? If she did, what were the reasons to believe her recantation over her accusation? Did the daughter say it was a lie later in life?

All I know from the article is that Wiener, a very smart person, thought the accusation was credible enough at the time to completely cut off people who were very important to him personally and intellectually. I also know that those people accused were very heavy drinkers.

It's safer to say we don't know anything about the veracity of the claim unless the reference offered some sort of material alibi.

Re: On Norbert Wiener's Relationship with Bertrand Russell

#18

Post by ArtWomb »

hilbert42 wrote: post #3

If you are interested in or have done some philosophy then you'll find this article fascinating and informative. It covers aspects of the strained relationship between Bertrand Russell and Norbert Wiener that I can't ever remember reading about in other short biographies of the pre-WWI Cambridge philosophers and mathematicians. Similarly, the somewhat awkward and prickly relationship been Russell and Wittgenstein is…

Specifically Trinity College, Cambridge. From Newton to Byron. And down to the Cambridge Spies and Bloomsbury Group.

Although they still do the Math Tripos, the Greats program in Ancient Greek and Latin seems to have befallen modern times and is sadly diminished. One wonders what we are losing ;)

Re: On Norbert Wiener's Relationship with Bertrand Russell

#19

Post by simiones »

Guthur wrote: post #10
ggm wrote: post #2

Norbert Weiner is a standout of modern computing/mathematics because he took a principled stand on the consequences of his research, and decided to move fields because he didn't want his work to directly relate to military applications. There are very few people of his standing in science at that time, and I believe since, with the fortitude to resist temptation to take the high paying gig despite the moral implicati…

Was it a moral stance or the fact he had a great detestation of human suffering, as alluded to in the article. Someone of that brilliance would quite easily be able to draw the link between their work and future suffering. It's possible this is a moral stance but I'm not so sure, it some what feels like a pain reaction. I must admit I've had the same thought about my own actions, I hate to see people suffer too the p…

There is an exploration of this train of thought in Frank Herbert's novel "Whipping Star", where a criminal condemned to a Clockwork-Orange-style conditioning to abhor pain and suffering nevertheless finds a way to commit murder by exploiting a truly alien being with no human-understandable concept of suffering.

Still, I think in non sci-fi scenarios, an abhorrence for suffering and moral behavior are very much linked, if not perfectly equal.

Re: On Norbert Wiener's Relationship with Bertrand Russell

#20

Post by simiones »

IndySun wrote: post #15

I found this article another gem from the numerous gems concerning Russell. I feel I must point out, as a fully paid up 'fan' of Russell's, and because people here have mentioned 'principles', he misstepped on race, perhaps (kindly) an indication of the sheer engrained blanket racism still prevalent in the world throughout the 20th century. For those evermore curious... https://studsterkel.wfmt.com/programs/interview…

Can you point out a specific example of racism in that interview? I haven't looked through it entirely, but searching for some common terms that I expect someone to use when showing some racism ("race", "racism", "black", "intelligence", "asian", "brown") I couldn't find anything (he does mention Black men once, but only in a hypothetical reaction he expects the general public to have, one that he criticizes).

The interview is relatively long though, and searching for those words is not a sufficient indication, so I am curious.

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