On Norbert Wiener's Relationship with Bertrand Russell
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On Norbert Wiener's Relationship with Bertrand Russell
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Re: On Norbert Wiener's Relationship with Bertrand Russell
#2Norbert Weiner is a standout of modern computing/mathematics because he took a principled stand on the consequences of his research, and decided to move fields because he didn't want his work to directly relate to military applications.
There are very few people of his standing in science at that time, and I believe since, with the fortitude to resist temptation to take the high paying gig despite the moral implications. Joseph Rotblat comes to mind.
Re: On Norbert Wiener's Relationship with Bertrand Russell
#3If you are interested in or have done some philosophy then you'll find this article fascinating and informative. It covers aspects of the strained relationship between Bertrand Russell and Norbert Wiener that I can't ever remember reading about in other short biographies of the pre-WWI Cambridge philosophers and mathematicians. Similarly, the somewhat awkward and prickly relationship been Russell and Wittgenstein is mentioned.
The article conveys a sense of the intellectual milieu in and around Cambridge in 1913. That must have been a remarkable time to have been at Cambridge and majored in philosophy and or mathematics with the likes of Russell, Wiener, Wittgenstein, G.E. Moore, G.H. Hardy J.E. Littlewood, A.N. Whitehead all there at the same time—even Srinivasa Ramanujan was there in 1913!
I'd have loved to have been around this intellectual tour de force when I was studying those subjects. Ah, well, I'll just have to be content with the fact that a number of my textbooks were written by four of them not to mention other notables who they'd influenced.
Re: On Norbert Wiener's Relationship with Bertrand Russell
#4Norbert Weiner is a standout of modern computing/mathematics because he took a principled stand on the consequences of his research, and decided to move fields because he didn't want his work to directly relate to military applications. There are very few people of his standing in science at that time, and I believe since, with the fortitude to resist temptation to take the high paying gig despite the moral implicati…
Lol there are people that do this every day. Either they take a principled stand against tech and turn down lucrative research roles in industry, or, for example, they turn down funding from the military; I switched PhD programs last year because I did not want to work on object detection for the army. In doing so I forewent a very nice fellowship. I don't say this because I want a pat on the back but just to demonstrate that it's very common.
Re: On Norbert Wiener's Relationship with Bertrand Russell
#5Norbert Weiner is a standout of modern computing/mathematics because he took a principled stand on the consequences of his research, and decided to move fields because he didn't want his work to directly relate to military applications. There are very few people of his standing in science at that time, and I believe since, with the fortitude to resist temptation to take the high paying gig despite the moral implicati…
Lol there are people that do this every day. Either they take a principled stand against tech and turn down lucrative research roles in industry, or, for example, they turn down funding from the military; I switched PhD programs last year because I did not want to work on object detection for the army. In doing so I forewent a very nice fellowship. I don't say this because I want a pat on the back but just to demonst…
... of his standing.
Re: On Norbert Wiener's Relationship with Bertrand Russell
#6Earlier quoted context omitted.
Lol there are people that do this every day. Either they take a principled stand against tech and turn down lucrative research roles in industry, or, for example, they turn down funding from the military; I switched PhD programs last year because I did not want to work on object detection for the army. In doing so I forewent a very nice fellowship. I don't say this because I want a pat on the back but just to demonst…
... of his standing.
i'm not sure why you think it's harder for someone "of his standing" to turn down opportunities. the marginal utility for him is much lower than for grad students that have to choose between RAships and TAships or fresh PhDs that have to choose between risky tenure track grinds and lucrative industry roles.
Re: On Norbert Wiener's Relationship with Bertrand Russell
#7Earlier quoted context omitted.
... of his standing.
i'm not sure why you think it's harder for someone "of his standing" to turn down opportunities. the marginal utility for him is much lower than for grad students that have to choose between RAships and TAships or fresh PhDs that have to choose between risky tenure track grinds and lucrative industry roles.
I don't think its hard. I just think they don't. I think it's really sad how few senior scientists with standing do this. They seem to lack the fortitude to do something, which isn't that hard when it comes down to it.
I don't blame fresh starts who go for the lucrative roles, they need the money. Once you're established, finding a hill to stand on and choosing to stand on it seems to get .. less likely?
You made the call, good for you. I admire that. I wish more people with established status did, and said so.
Am I missing something? is there a lot of news out there about CompSci and AI profs sticking it to the man (faang) about things? I don't see it, and thats what I'm responding to here. Norbert Weiner was apex in his field. He looked at what was going to happen with it, and decided to stop feeding the beast. Where's the equivalent behavour from his peer-set in todays world?
Re: On Norbert Wiener's Relationship with Bertrand Russell
#8Earlier quoted context omitted.
i'm not sure why you think it's harder for someone "of his standing" to turn down opportunities. the marginal utility for him is much lower than for grad students that have to choose between RAships and TAships or fresh PhDs that have to choose between risky tenure track grinds and lucrative industry roles.
I don't think its hard. I just think they don't. I think it's really sad how few senior scientists with standing do this. They seem to lack the fortitude to do something, which isn't that hard when it comes down to it. I don't blame fresh starts who go for the lucrative roles, they need the money. Once you're established, finding a hill to stand on and choosing to stand on it seems to get .. less likely? You made the…
>CompSci and AI profs sticking it to the man (faang) about things
there are very frequently articles/gossip on quittings/firings of famous researchers. timnit gebru is a recent example.
>Norbert Weiner was apex in his field.
i wouldn't be so quick to lionize him - he was also not very kind to walter pitts and possibly contributed to his suicide
http://nautil.us/issue/21/information/the-man-who-tried-to-r...
Re: On Norbert Wiener's Relationship with Bertrand Russell
#9Earlier quoted context omitted.
Lol there are people that do this every day. Either they take a principled stand against tech and turn down lucrative research roles in industry, or, for example, they turn down funding from the military; I switched PhD programs last year because I did not want to work on object detection for the army. In doing so I forewent a very nice fellowship. I don't say this because I want a pat on the back but just to demonst…
... of his standing.
Part of the issue might be that those who choose the more moral course don't get the large government grants and military funding, which means that they don't get well known, not because they aren't just as talented but because of lack of funds. So scientists of standing may self select for the kind of person who will do anything for money and fame. If society had more funding for principled causes, or celebrated those with them, we might see more scientists with standing (i.e. well-known) who also stuck to their principles.
Re: On Norbert Wiener's Relationship with Bertrand Russell
#10Norbert Weiner is a standout of modern computing/mathematics because he took a principled stand on the consequences of his research, and decided to move fields because he didn't want his work to directly relate to military applications. There are very few people of his standing in science at that time, and I believe since, with the fortitude to resist temptation to take the high paying gig despite the moral implicati…
Was it a moral stance or the fact he had a great detestation of human suffering, as alluded to in the article. Someone of that brilliance would quite easily be able to draw the link between their work and future suffering.
It's possible this is a moral stance but I'm not so sure, it some what feels like a pain reaction. I must admit I've had the same thought about my own actions, I hate to see people suffer too the point where it has a pain like sensation, If I've been the cause of it I try to rectified quickly, is this morality?