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What can we do to fight corrupt governments?
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Re: What can we do to fight corrupt governments?
#12You live in a power structure based on a hierarchy of control down to almost, but not quite, the individual level. All monies are stolen high up in this hierarchy and filter down as bribes to the lower levels. China is perfecting this to attain the individual level. The control mechanism in these power structures is:- Fear, pure and simple. If you attract the attention of the structure they will deal with you in one…
China has the most 2nd-most millionaires per capita of any country in the world (and by far the most by total). The idea that "all monies are stolen high up" and "filter down as bribes" is just laughable.
Perhaps you're just referring to the rampant (and real) corruption among public officials, but if you're claiming that poor and middle-class Chinese are ripping off the wealthy, there's very scant evidence for it.
Re: What can we do to fight corrupt governments?
#13South Africa has one of the highest Gini coefficients of the entire planet. So if they're taking money from 4 million and redistributing it to the rest, they're not going a very good job of it.
That said, S. Africa clearly is dealing with a lot of political corruption. I agree that the answer is transparency. But it's also to reduce income inequality, since income inequality has a very high correlation with political corruption and civil unrest (which we see in SA in the form of high rates of violent crime).
Re: What can we do to fight corrupt governments?
#14Not to detract from your root question, but it's worth being accurate with the numbers.
The number of individual tax payers is 7.6 million, not 4 million. There is also company taxes on top of that [1].
But that's not the whole picture. You also have to take into account non-personal taxes like VAT, booze, smokes, sugar and petrol to name but a few. These are significant revenue sources, and ultimately tax low-income people fairly harshly.
So to say 4 million people are paying for everyone else is an over simplification.
I'll comment on your main question in another post. [1] https://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2019-10-28-crunch-th...
Re: What can we do to fight corrupt governments?
#15Governments are not corrupt. People are corrupt. This is an important difference because the party in power may be the same but people can change.
Investigations into the corruption of the past are underway, but despite daily revelations in the press it is not something that should be hurried. Justice may take time, but I am optimistic that it will prevail.
It is also somewhat unhelpful to see govt as being intrinsically corrupt because there is no solution to that since govt is a giant faceless blob. If we rather see people as corrupt we can hold those people to account - and yes that takes time. The first step is in changing the people at the top, and at least that has happened.
If nothing else shining a light on the previous administration will make it easier to spot errances in future administration.
Re: What can we do to fight corrupt governments?
#16You live in a power structure based on a hierarchy of control down to almost, but not quite, the individual level. All monies are stolen high up in this hierarchy and filter down as bribes to the lower levels. China is perfecting this to attain the individual level. The control mechanism in these power structures is:- Fear, pure and simple. If you attract the attention of the structure they will deal with you in one…
China has the most 2nd-most millionaires per capita of any country in the world (and by far the most by total). The idea that "all monies are stolen high up" and "filter down as bribes" is just laughable. Perhaps you're just referring to the rampant (and real) corruption among public officials, but if you're claiming that poor and middle-class Chinese are ripping off the wealthy, there's very scant evidence for it.
I was referring to the OP in Africa about their African tribe based dictatorships etc. China is a different case, more mature chicanery involved.
Re: What can we do to fight corrupt governments?
#17Earlier quoted context omitted.
Anything and everything done with taxpayer money should be open and transparent by default , should be available to the public in real time , not six months or 5 years later. Transparency is the start, but that alone wouldn't be enough? Look at the shenanigans of the current govt - they are openly breaking laws and just don't care. It is well documented, everyone knows about it, still nothing happens
Unlimited and immediate transparency are generally not a good idea. Before government data is released to the public you have to ensure there is accountability to applicable regulations and sensitivity to any personally identifiable information. The goal is to hold governments accountable without violating the privacy of impacted individuals or any other internally sensitive information.
> Unlimited and immediate transparency are generally not a good idea. Before government data is released to the public you have to ensure there is accountability to applicable regulations and sensitivity to any personally identifiable information.
> The goal is to hold governments accountable without violating the privacy of impacted individuals or any other internally sensitive information.
Should be doable to vet the release algorithmically in a great number of cases. And any data that's not available should have have a page explaining specifically why in its place.
Re: What can we do to fight corrupt governments?
#18The common and obvious and mentioned answer is transparency.
But I suppose, the root problem in south africa is something else ... the colonial dept and racism (from both sides). And this is a complicated one to solve.
I suppose you are white and grew up priviliged? Well, imagine growing up black and in poverty and learning, that your original culture was conquered and destroyed and enslaved. And then you are free. But with nothing on your hands and in a system still run by the old slave owners and all the wealth and land still owned by them (all oversimplified).
So naturally there are revenge feelings and wanting compensation. But how do you make old injustices fair without new injustice? You can't.
Thats why the anc failed to do a good politic and apparently it all dissolved into corruption and missmanagement.
Re: What can we do to fight corrupt governments?
#19Don't all 60 million also pay fuel levies, consumption taxes on alcohol and tobacco, and VAT on purchases?
Your tax base might be wider than you are alluding to.
Re: What can we do to fight corrupt governments?
#20Not to detract from your root question, but it's worth being accurate with the numbers. The number of individual tax payers is 7.6 million, not 4 million. There is also company taxes on top of that [1]. But that's not the whole picture. You also have to take into account non-personal taxes like VAT, booze, smokes, sugar and petrol to name but a few. These are significant revenue sources, and ultimately tax low-income…
Its a very common way to say "white people pay for everyone", without actually having to say so.
Which is why the 4 million taxpayers typically matches the number of white adults.