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A Tale of Two Terminals: Beijing Terminal 3 and Heathrow Terminal 5

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11–20 of 34 posts

Re: A Tale of Two Terminals: Beijing Terminal 3 and Heathrow Terminal 5

#11
Heathrow is a mess. Everyone who travels regularly to southern England does everything they can to avoid it when flying.

I don't know anything about this airport in Beijing. But comparing airports to Heathrow is just too easy. Any airport would look well managed compared to Heathrow.

Re: A Tale of Two Terminals: Beijing Terminal 3 and Heathrow Terminal 5

#12
post #4

Also compare Heathrow Terminal 5 with Madrid Barajas latest terminal. Both designed by the same British architectural firm, Barajas took about half the time to build, cost less and is an uncompromised design.

Hmm. Last time I was at the new terminal at Barajas, they had announcements every two minutes explaining that for purposes of making the terminal a peaceful environment they don't do announcements.

The building's nice, though.

Re: A Tale of Two Terminals: Beijing Terminal 3 and Heathrow Terminal 5

#13

Well one was built by a state elite gerontocracy who have centuries of being in charge and an utter contempt for the workers building the terminal and the ultimate users. and the other was buill by the chinese

Wow, nice twist. Didn't expect that at the end. Nice garden path sentences.

Re: A Tale of Two Terminals: Beijing Terminal 3 and Heathrow Terminal 5

#14
post #13

Well one was built by a state elite gerontocracy who have centuries of being in charge and an utter contempt for the workers building the terminal and the ultimate users. and the other was buill by the chinese

Wow, nice twist. Didn't expect that at the end. Nice garden path sentences.

Not really, as garden path sentences are more about incorrect parsing of structure, rather than interpreting the meaning of the sentence to be something else. For example, reading the first sentence above, you can get all the way to the end without having re-evaluate the sentence from the beginning. It's only when you read the 2nd sentence that you realize that the writer was implying something different than you first thought.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garden_path_sentence

/pedantry

Re: A Tale of Two Terminals: Beijing Terminal 3 and Heathrow Terminal 5

#15
post #5
post #3

The only real thing he studied in this comparison is rehearsal and timing. The British death marched to an unrealistically optimistic date while the Chinese were finished and testing long before the ship date. Socio-technical systems theory is interesting but he doesn't explain how the Chinese did this better. The Chinese aren't exactly known for empowering their workers.

If the workers aren't empowered, the success of the project is up to the leaders. Apparently the Chinese manager was more competent than the British one.

>If the workers aren't empowered, the success of the project is up to the leaders.

This statement contradicts the findings of socio-techical systems theory.

STS shows that competent leaders are leaders who empower their subordinates - this usually achieves better results than command and control.

Re: A Tale of Two Terminals: Beijing Terminal 3 and Heathrow Terminal 5

#16
post #3

The only real thing he studied in this comparison is rehearsal and timing. The British death marched to an unrealistically optimistic date while the Chinese were finished and testing long before the ship date. Socio-technical systems theory is interesting but he doesn't explain how the Chinese did this better. The Chinese aren't exactly known for empowering their workers.

Well, systems theory in general is more or less accepted as 'correct'. As in, you'd be a fool to design any large scale project without looking at systems theory.

It's true that the author didn't go very much into detail into the Chinese vs British thing. In fact, I believe that the whole thing just served more as a hook for the meat of the piece (systems theory).

But anyhow, strictly speaking, when dealing with complex systems, you don't -need- super empowered individual workers. You just need empowered sub-units (with the lowest level as possible), and in general the smaller the sub-unit (all the way down to the individual... sometimes) will make your system more robust (and possibly more efficient). So in theory, you're lowest empowered sub-unit could just have a single manager/leader who still holds all the authority, while all the remaining team members are 'merely' well rehearsed and trained.

So in the case of the Chinese, you could just have empowered managers leading smallish work teams who are 'just' technically sound. Which seems to fit the stereotype good enough I guess.

And on the side, one of the wondrous things about systems theory is that it applies as much to the thing you're building as well as the process to build it. You can have an end product that when finally done preform beautifully from a system's standpoint (robust, efficient, adaptable, etc etc), but development be an utter hellhole (and the reverse).

Re: A Tale of Two Terminals: Beijing Terminal 3 and Heathrow Terminal 5

#17
post #9

China is successful with these things because they have a large number of excess staff, and the staff are very obedient. Britain typically has too few staff, and the staff are very independent. A person who has been to a chinese restaurant in china will understand the difference.

Service industries in China can't be expected to be superior based on their personnel numbers alone. Cultural paradigms can produce good and bad results - as when poorly paid workers with no expectations of tips and customers accustomed to certain things lead to a custom where to summon waistaff all you can do is loudly yell '服务员'...

Re: A Tale of Two Terminals: Beijing Terminal 3 and Heathrow Terminal 5

#18

Heathrow is a mess. Everyone who travels regularly to southern England does everything they can to avoid it when flying. I don't know anything about this airport in Beijing. But comparing airports to Heathrow is just too easy. Any airport would look well managed compared to Heathrow.

I disagree, City's better if you're coming from Europe, but Heathrow still the best airport to get into London from anywhere else, especially Terminal 5. T5 had a lot of problems when it started, but now it's by far the best major airport terminal I've flown from.

It takes me less than 15 minutes to get from the T5 tube station to sitting in the departure lounge waiting for boarding. It's almost as good as Eurostar.

(Although if you're from outside London it can be easier to get to Gatwick transport-wise)

Re: A Tale of Two Terminals: Beijing Terminal 3 and Heathrow Terminal 5

#19
This isn't really a fair comparison, as has been noted elsewhere here. Heathrow is an exceptionally poor example of airport construction and operation. There were fewer constraints at hand in the construction of the new Beijing terminal as well - so if thing X went wrong, I think there was probably less ability to delay matters.

Re: A Tale of Two Terminals: Beijing Terminal 3 and Heathrow Terminal 5

#20
post #18

Heathrow is a mess. Everyone who travels regularly to southern England does everything they can to avoid it when flying. I don't know anything about this airport in Beijing. But comparing airports to Heathrow is just too easy. Any airport would look well managed compared to Heathrow.

I disagree, City's better if you're coming from Europe, but Heathrow still the best airport to get into London from anywhere else, especially Terminal 5. T5 had a lot of problems when it started, but now it's by far the best major airport terminal I've flown from. It takes me less than 15 minutes to get from the T5 tube station to sitting in the departure lounge waiting for boarding. It's almost as good as Eurostar.…

I agree that T5 is pretty decent. The queues are short and there's lots of seating. Access by car is pretty decent if you're on that side of London (which most of the country is). Pretty much all I care about.

I generally try to avoid Heathrow T3 though (and T2 and T4 never seem to have flights to where I want to go).

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