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Expecting programmers to problem solve for 8 hours is stupid

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Re: Expecting programmers to problem solve for 8 hours is stupid

#11

Post by prepend »

There are lots of different configurations supported by lots of companies. I’ve never worked in a company, in 25 years, that expected 8 hours of literal coding. There’s meetings, admin junk, training, etc.

But maybe the easiest would be to start your one person contracting company with either a high hourly rate that you can sell to clients who understand your productivity. Or you can bill by job and have clients not care about hours worked. This would let you work whatever you want.

I think the most common config I’ve seen for programmers is to work in 8x5 jobs that only require an hour or two of literal programming. And if lucky, have flexibility within that period to maybe have a few bursts of deep work and then slack time.

Re: Expecting programmers to problem solve for 8 hours is stupid

#12

Post by guitarbill »

0xd171 wrote: post #4

You're expected to be at work for ~8 hours, not to problem solve for that long. (Hopefully, if you're at a half-decent company). You have email and chat to manage, stand-ups, other meetings and calls, coffee breaks, lunch. Most people can set up their day in a way that they can be productive without feeling like they need to be constantly 100% concentrated.

Some people prefer working intensely, some people don't. So why demand 8h of presence from everybody as long as the work gets done?

From my experience, policies of being in the office for hours significantly reduces productivity, as people spend more time trying to fill their days instead of doing the work.

Regardless, it's patronising to effectively treat highly paid professionals like children with dumb, simplistic rules, and morale will also suffer appropriately.

Re: Expecting programmers to problem solve for 8 hours is stupid

#14

Post by toomuchtodo »

guitarbill wrote: post #12
0xd171 wrote: post #4

You're expected to be at work for ~8 hours, not to problem solve for that long. (Hopefully, if you're at a half-decent company). You have email and chat to manage, stand-ups, other meetings and calls, coffee breaks, lunch. Most people can set up their day in a way that they can be productive without feeling like they need to be constantly 100% concentrated.

Some people prefer working intensely, some people don't. So why demand 8h of presence from everybody as long as the work gets done? From my experience, policies of being in the office for hours significantly reduces productivity, as people spend more time trying to fill their days instead of doing the work. Regardless, it's patronising to effectively treat highly paid professionals like children with dumb, simplistic…

> So why demand 8h of presence from everybody as long as the work gets done?

The inability to manage and unreasonable expectations. Good managers are rare. Hold on to them like your life depends on it when you find them. Take care of them and they will take care of you.

Re: Expecting programmers to problem solve for 8 hours is stupid

#16

Post by ineedasername »

zzzcpan wrote: post #6
ineedasername wrote: post #2

I don't think I've ever heard this type of complaint before. In my case, and I'd wager a significant chunk of this community, doesn't have too much of a problem putting in an 8 hour day. Sure, distractions arise sometimes, sometimes it's harder to focus, but overall it seems like you are describing your own limitations, not those of a majority.

> In my case, and I'd wager a significant chunk of this community, doesn't have too much of a problem putting in an 8 hour day. I don't think I ever encountered programmers working 8 hours per day 5 days a week. Even 6 hours per day is too draining, only young people can do it. Sustainable productive programming work is like 15-20 hours per week tops without strict bounds on how much you can do in a day.

Maybe it's just a difference of culture. I work in more of an Enterprise atmosphere, and the idea that we wouldn't put in 8 hours seems ridiculous. Sure, it's no all tech work, there's meetings and such, but it's generally a productive 8 hours.

Re: Expecting programmers to problem solve for 8 hours is stupid

#17

Post by SketchySeaBeast »

Rainymood wrote: post #5
sake wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Distractions are not really my problem, it's mental exhaustion. If anything I think I should probably have more breaks, when I'm at work I just work. I see majority of people procrastinating, reading news, social media or socializing with coworkers to take their mind off work from time to time. If you can work 8 hours straight with only a lunch break, I don't think you are doing very mentally intensive work.

I have studied and kept detailed logs of my work for years. When I reach 4-5 hours of "real" work (i.e. deep work) I am mentally exhausted and I consider it a good day. No one expects you to be 8 hours straight in the zone, no one does. And if you can do so, the more power to you, but be careful not to burn yourself out. 3-5 hours of deep work - that's it

> No one expects you to be 8 hours straight in the zone, no one does.

I see we haven't worked somewhere with billable hours.

Re: Expecting programmers to problem solve for 8 hours is stupid

#18

Post by onlyrealcuzzo »

cm2012 wrote: post #13

I did a poll of HN a while back and the average HNer spends about 6 hours a day doing work of any sort (including meetings, etc.) Only 25% did more than 8 hours a day, and 25% did 4 or less. Seniority had no effect on time spent working.

The problem is, if you're an employer and you went to a 6 hour workday:

1) you lose out on the people that can and do work 8 hours. 2) the people that only work a percentage of the 8 hours are only going to work a percentage of the 6 hours, and you'll lose out there as well.

Sure, you might say, we should just work less hours and hire more people. With 3.7% unemployment, that's easier said than done.

Re: Expecting programmers to problem solve for 8 hours is stupid

#19

Post by 6gvONxR4sf7o »

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #18
cm2012 wrote: post #13

I did a poll of HN a while back and the average HNer spends about 6 hours a day doing work of any sort (including meetings, etc.) Only 25% did more than 8 hours a day, and 25% did 4 or less. Seniority had no effect on time spent working.

The problem is, if you're an employer and you went to a 6 hour workday: 1) you lose out on the people that can and do work 8 hours. 2) the people that only work a percentage of the 8 hours are only going to work a percentage of the 6 hours, and you'll lose out there as well. Sure, you might say, we should just work less hours and hire more people. With 3.7% unemployment, that's easier said than done.

3) It would be a more desirable job. Retention goes up and maybe you can get better people. Your employees are happier and so are their families. When you have to do "crunch time" people are less bitter.

Re: Expecting programmers to problem solve for 8 hours is stupid

#20

Post by boyadjian »

I totally agree. In my job, we work 37h30 a week, and have supplementary holidays. So it makes a day lasting 8h30, including one hour pause at midday. For me, concentrating during 7h30 is impossible, usually, after 6h of work, I am completely saturated. Same thing for me, takes the whole evening to cool down before sleep. For me, a programmer should work 6h30 a day, that would be a good starting point.
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