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Is Amazon Violating U.S. Antitrust Laws?

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Re: Is Amazon Violating U.S. Antitrust Laws?

#11
post #6
post #2

What about Uber and Lyft? Aren't they known to operate at a loss to undercut the competition, and couldn't taxi drivers bring them to court for that?

according to the article, if the company is operate at loss and it benefit customers, it is fine! "Both of these outcomes reflect consumers failing to share in Amazon’s bounty, which is key for current antitrust law. Right now, anti-competitive conduct like predatory pricing is judged under the “consumer welfare standard,” which has been interpreted to mean simply whether a market dominated by a single company result…

This view, that prices to consumers are really the only thing that matters, is why Amazon was able to use the Justice Department to remove their only real competition in the eBook space (Apple).

Re: Is Amazon Violating U.S. Antitrust Laws?

#12
post #8
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

according to the article, if the company is operate at loss and it benefit customers, it is fine! "Both of these outcomes reflect consumers failing to share in Amazon’s bounty, which is key for current antitrust law. Right now, anti-competitive conduct like predatory pricing is judged under the “consumer welfare standard,” which has been interpreted to mean simply whether a market dominated by a single company result…

I'd argue consumers are benefiting greatly from Amazon's profits. They have overall re-invested those profits into other businesses that benefit consumers. Ex: Purchased Whole Foods and have brought down those prices overall plus building Amazon Go stores which offer a much better consumer experience than traditional grocery. Amazon's Web Services platform has leveled the playing field and enabled many startups. Amaz…

Benefiting now perhaps, but isn't the point that in the long run customers will be worse off because of what Amazon is doing?

Re: Is Amazon Violating U.S. Antitrust Laws?

#13
post #8
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

according to the article, if the company is operate at loss and it benefit customers, it is fine! "Both of these outcomes reflect consumers failing to share in Amazon’s bounty, which is key for current antitrust law. Right now, anti-competitive conduct like predatory pricing is judged under the “consumer welfare standard,” which has been interpreted to mean simply whether a market dominated by a single company result…

I'd argue consumers are benefiting greatly from Amazon's profits. They have overall re-invested those profits into other businesses that benefit consumers. Ex: Purchased Whole Foods and have brought down those prices overall plus building Amazon Go stores which offer a much better consumer experience than traditional grocery. Amazon's Web Services platform has leveled the playing field and enabled many startups. Amaz…

Free delivery isn't free; it's just amortized baked into the price. The real savings come from logistics like getting one shipment from the Everything Store instead of 5 separate shipments.

Re: Is Amazon Violating U.S. Antitrust Laws?

#15
post #5
post #2

What about Uber and Lyft? Aren't they known to operate at a loss to undercut the competition, and couldn't taxi drivers bring them to court for that?

That seems like you could easily circumvent by claiming the underpriced service is a loss leader, routing customers towards more profitable upsells at other points in the relationship. Printers and toner, handles and razors, banks and toasters.

These all[1], along with the general concept of a loss leader, are instances where a company is leveraging patent or protected data laws in an unintended manner to set up a moat against competition - as this is anti-competitive all these examples should be examined to see to what extent are preventing free enterprise - printer toner is a particularly egregious example of using device lock down to prevent a legitimate use of a product.

[1] Except banks and toasters which is... a weird example case

Re: Is Amazon Violating U.S. Antitrust Laws?

#16
post #10

Yes, via vertical integration[1] - this should be obvious to anyone outside of the FTC[2]. [1] For people unaware of Amazon's practice of pushing out middlemen who conduct high volumes of business: http://fortune.com/2016/04/20/amazon-copies-merchants/ [2] People inside of the FTC are almost certainly aware, but happily continue to shove their fingers in their ears and sing "la la la I can't hear you la la la".

Vertical integration, or cutting out the ‘middle-man’ is not in and of itself illegal.

What might be illegal would be selling products at a loss to drive others away.

Re: Is Amazon Violating U.S. Antitrust Laws?

#17
post #16
post #10

Yes, via vertical integration[1] - this should be obvious to anyone outside of the FTC[2]. [1] For people unaware of Amazon's practice of pushing out middlemen who conduct high volumes of business: http://fortune.com/2016/04/20/amazon-copies-merchants/ [2] People inside of the FTC are almost certainly aware, but happily continue to shove their fingers in their ears and sing "la la la I can't hear you la la la".

Vertical integration, or cutting out the ‘middle-man’ is not in and of itself illegal. What might be illegal would be selling products at a loss to drive others away.

Or controlling the market place where those middle-men are operating from which you're forcing them out? Really, the burden of proof here is on Amazon and I'd be amazed if there wasn't really clear cut proof that they used analytics they don't offer to outside clients (private information) to specifically undercut the existing sellers (under pricing) or selling the products at a profitable point unrealizable if you need to pay their listing fee (again under pricing) or even just delisted their competitors products or discouraged searches from returning them as valid options.

Pretty certain amazon checked at least one of those boxes - reasonably confident they checked at least three of them.

Re: Is Amazon Violating U.S. Antitrust Laws?

#18
(Disclaimer: I work for Amazon, but not in the retail, legal, or finance departments, and I have no inside information about what the company is doing with respect to its pricing. Opinions are my own and not of the company.)

Yet another sensationalist headline that is unsubstantiated by the article.

"This law student" has a theory. He does not have evidence -- and, in fact, much ink in the article is spilled on the fact that the evidence needed to sustain an antitrust case against Amazon isn't readily available to the public or to the Government.

Nor has any Court ever held, to my knowledge, that an antitrust action can be sustained without consumer prices going up - merely keeping them the same is not enough.

Key quotes (emphasis mine):

"Sussman believes that if Amazon gave the full picture, it would show negative cash flow."

"No current accounting rules force full disclosure of itemized costs. Considered highly confidential, they’re typically redacted from public legal documents, even when a company is sued. More definitive cash flow numbers could help prove whether Amazon sells items below cost."

"Sussman believes that the Federal Trade Commission should force companies to break down their costs in confidential examinations."

"Right now, anti-competitive conduct like predatory pricing is judged under the “consumer welfare standard,” which has been interpreted to mean simply whether a market dominated by a single company results in higher or lower prices. But even though prices are the same on Amazon, consumers are arguably missing out, Sussman explains, because they’re not benefiting from Amazon’s soaring profits." (This is not my understanding of an actionable situation under current antitrust law.)

Re: Is Amazon Violating U.S. Antitrust Laws?

#19
post #16
post #10

Yes, via vertical integration[1] - this should be obvious to anyone outside of the FTC[2]. [1] For people unaware of Amazon's practice of pushing out middlemen who conduct high volumes of business: http://fortune.com/2016/04/20/amazon-copies-merchants/ [2] People inside of the FTC are almost certainly aware, but happily continue to shove their fingers in their ears and sing "la la la I can't hear you la la la".

Vertical integration, or cutting out the ‘middle-man’ is not in and of itself illegal. What might be illegal would be selling products at a loss to drive others away.

Loss leaders are legal, right? What's the effective difference between those and predatory pricing? Is it just the intention rather than the actual effect?

Re: Is Amazon Violating U.S. Antitrust Laws?

#20
Amazon has a team called "Amazon Profitability Group". I used to work for said team, albeit only briefly.

The purpose of the team is to calculate the proper price to sell items for, the "discount" to vendors, and the items to put in the "buy box" in order to make the most profit for Amazon. I think the what is described here in the article is only the tip of the iceberg. Amazon isn't doing something as simplistic as cutting out the competition with low prices... they are feeding all the numbers into neural networks and analyzing and predicting competition and profits, and then doing what the systems tell them is the most profitable.

That is, anything that Amazon can predict will make them more money or gain more market share... they are doing. I have full confidence that they are doing all of the terrible things outlined and more. The bigger question is whether government and law allow them to continue doing this. I think that it will continue to be allowed, despite being super shady and destroying both small and medium size businesses.

It cannot easily be proven that there is anyone orchestrating the monopolistic processes, because Amazon has essentially turned the process of dominating the market into an equation and they just do what the equation tells them to.

Amazon will claim "we are just being smarter; we mean no harm", and without providing open minutes of their internal discussions it will be impossible to prove wrongdoing.

What is needed is open accountability for internal plans, but that is against the "American way" so I doubt it will happen anytime soon.

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