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After accidental vote, EU copyright bill faces three legitimacy issues

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Re: After accidental vote, EU copyright bill faces three legitimacy issues

#11

Post by soneil »

jgmjgm wrote: post #10
viraptor wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may need some references for that idea. I'm not saying it's wrong, just that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Nonsense. This type of criticism is unwarranted and I suspect disingenuous. There are lots of contexts in which we can say we would like to see more data. However, when someone is making a point which is a fairly standard one in the Brexit debates we don't need "references". Nor would referring to an article that said the same thing as OP somehow validate the point. There is a place for asking for references, but on…

I don't think it's nonsense at all. The vote was a binary yes/no. Whenever someone ascribes shades of grey to a "yes" or a "no", I'm also curious about where they derived this from. Because what he's telling us wasn't on the ballot at all.

So I'm not sure I'd agree the point is "a fairly standard one". Some will say it was about representation, some will say it was about sovereignty, some will say it was about immigration. Some will even say it was simply a protest against the status quo.

Anyone who states "this is what we voted for" has decided that their reason for voting yes was the primary reason for 17m to vote yes, with no evidence at all.

Re: After accidental vote, EU copyright bill faces three legitimacy issues

#12

Post by PavlovsCat »

dbdjfjrjvebd wrote: post #8
viraptor wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may need some references for that idea. I'm not saying it's wrong, just that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Listening to people that voted for Brexit has shown me that they voted for it for many reasons. This is one of the reasons that people have given me. Furthermore this is a reason that many remainers were not able to push the case for remain strongly enough.

> This is one of the reasons that people have given me.

Which by definition means it wasn't the only reason, which proves kozikow's comment to be untrue.

Re: After accidental vote, EU copyright bill faces three legitimacy issues

#13

Post by seba_dos1 »

fasterthanlime wrote: post #9
gambiting wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How so? Can you expand on that?

Here's MEP Dobromir Sośnierz showing how the two different kind of votes look like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLh9DMuetm4 It seemed incredible to me how one could "accidentally vote wrong", but seeing the process and speed at which it goes, I totally buy it now.

Keep in mind that this video comes from a very biased source (an unimportant party that literally went to elections with a claim to want to "destroy the EU from inside"). The issue may be real, but beware of how exactly it's being painted in this material.

Re: After accidental vote, EU copyright bill faces three legitimacy issues

#14

Post by daveFNbuck »

jgmjgm wrote: post #10
viraptor wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may need some references for that idea. I'm not saying it's wrong, just that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Nonsense. This type of criticism is unwarranted and I suspect disingenuous. There are lots of contexts in which we can say we would like to see more data. However, when someone is making a point which is a fairly standard one in the Brexit debates we don't need "references". Nor would referring to an article that said the same thing as OP somehow validate the point. There is a place for asking for references, but on…

Leading up to the Brexit vote, there was famously a bus driving around expressing the idea that voting to leave would result in a savings of 350 million pounds per week, which could be reinvested in the NHS.

I don't think there was a bus about bureaucracy.

Re: After accidental vote, EU copyright bill faces three legitimacy issues

#15

Post by herbstein »

fasterthanlime wrote: post #9
gambiting wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How so? Can you expand on that?

Here's MEP Dobromir Sośnierz showing how the two different kind of votes look like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLh9DMuetm4 It seemed incredible to me how one could "accidentally vote wrong", but seeing the process and speed at which it goes, I totally buy it now.

The clips he shows of the chairman looks a lot like "formal" votes. We have them here in Denmark too. It often goes something like this:

> Bill x can be fast-tracked. Does anyone oppose? It has been fast-tracked.

It's done like that because no one is going to oppose.

Re: After accidental vote, EU copyright bill faces three legitimacy issues

#16

Post by herbstein »

jgmjgm wrote: post #10
viraptor wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may need some references for that idea. I'm not saying it's wrong, just that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Nonsense. This type of criticism is unwarranted and I suspect disingenuous. There are lots of contexts in which we can say we would like to see more data. However, when someone is making a point which is a fairly standard one in the Brexit debates we don't need "references". Nor would referring to an article that said the same thing as OP somehow validate the point. There is a place for asking for references, but on…

One of the big reasons that pulled people to voting "no" was the perceived "invasion" of immigrants. There was a perception that EU were forcing the UK's hand, and aiding the "invasion".

Re: After accidental vote, EU copyright bill faces three legitimacy issues

#17

Post by mbrumlow »

rimliu wrote: post #6
kozikow wrote: post #4

Brexit vote expressed people disagreement with bureaucracy and corruption like this, not with being a part of Europe.

To quote a comment on reddit: “It is monumentally ironic that the Member State planning to leave the EU because they want to make their own decisions, can't take any decision on leaving the EU.”

That is actually funny. But I think it is important that leaving also gives them the right to be just as indecisive as they want.

Maybe being slow and arguing and thinking more about huge changes is exactly what they want.

Re: After accidental vote, EU copyright bill faces three legitimacy issues

#19

Post by lisper »

seba_dos1 wrote: post #13
fasterthanlime wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's MEP Dobromir Sośnierz showing how the two different kind of votes look like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLh9DMuetm4 It seemed incredible to me how one could "accidentally vote wrong", but seeing the process and speed at which it goes, I totally buy it now.

Keep in mind that this video comes from a very biased source (an unimportant party that literally went to elections with a claim to want to "destroy the EU from inside"). The issue may be real, but beware of how exactly it's being painted in this material.

If this issue is real (and it seems plausible to me) then destroying the EU from the inside might very well be an honorable thing to do.

Re: After accidental vote, EU copyright bill faces three legitimacy issues

#20

Post by trickstra »

fasterthanlime wrote: post #9
gambiting wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How so? Can you expand on that?

Here's MEP Dobromir Sośnierz showing how the two different kind of votes look like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLh9DMuetm4 It seemed incredible to me how one could "accidentally vote wrong", but seeing the process and speed at which it goes, I totally buy it now.

the lack of context in the video suggests strong populism. I don't believe this is how the copyright act was voted (I'm actually pretty sure that one was voted by names, not by hands, because we have the voting results on the european website)
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