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Stockholm’s deepest subway station is also an ecological wonder

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Re: Stockholm’s deepest subway station is also an ecological wonder

#11

Post by harryh »

noir_lord wrote: post #9
gumby wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those problems don't plague most other metros of the same vintage (e.g. Berlin, Paris, Moscow, St Petersburg, Tokyo, Osaka...) even though homeless people and vomit are prevalent there too. I don't know why NYC and BART have to have those issues.

Because half the American population supports a party that thinks public spending should be banned. So you end up with the classic 'privatise the profits, socialise the costs' setup. I don't understand why people can't see that some public spending is an economic force multiplier. I mean US infrastructure is notoriously bad for a developed economy, you have thousands of bridges that need massive remedial work to make…

Issues with US infrastructure are not due to a lack of spending but a HUGE lack of efficiency in that spending. The US actually spends more than most OECD countries on this sort of thing.

The reasons behind this poor efficiency are complex and no one really knows how to fix it.

Here is an interesting article on the NYC Subway System. It's obviously about one small slice of US infrastructure but the general story is the same.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/18/nyregion/new-york-subway-...

A lack of spending is not the problem.

Also, incidentally, since you mentioned "privatise the profits", it's worth noting that the Stockholm subway system is operated by MTR Corporation, a for-profit corporation based on Hong Kong.

Re: Stockholm’s deepest subway station is also an ecological wonder

#12

Post by consto »

crispyambulance wrote: post #6

Ok, but where are the people in the photos? Even a google image search reveals photos much like on altas obscura: vast tastefully designed cavernous space dotted with but a few token humans. It seems suspiciously clean and well maintained compared to NYC metro. Floors polished, no screaming lunatics, no cracked, floors, walls, ceilings. I am willing to bet it doesn't even smell like pee and vomit? Where are the masse…

I was in Stockholm a few weeks ago and among other things, went to visit this subway station. Granted I didn't visit during rush hour, but it was quiet, clean and rather nice.

The station itself may be the deepest, but it isn't the busiest, and if you look at a map it makes sense. It's a single stop away from T-Centralan where all of the lines converge and it is the last station on the line. Leaving the station you emerge in a garden near the centre of the city, but there are other lines that will probably get most closer.

I went there in the middle of summer and honestly, the entire city didn't feel that busy in the same way London feels. I wouldn't be surprised if many locals are holidaying elsewhere, and Stockholm while a capital city, isn't at the top of the list of city destinations.

Also, shameless self-promotion and photos, but a friend challenged me to blog my trip and post online, click here for photos: https://consto.uk/2018/07/16/interrailing-into-stockholm-day...

Re: Stockholm’s deepest subway station is also an ecological wonder

#13

Post by crispyambulance »

waterbear wrote: post #10
crispyambulance wrote: post #6

Ok, but where are the people in the photos? Even a google image search reveals photos much like on altas obscura: vast tastefully designed cavernous space dotted with but a few token humans. It seems suspiciously clean and well maintained compared to NYC metro. Floors polished, no screaming lunatics, no cracked, floors, walls, ceilings. I am willing to bet it doesn't even smell like pee and vomit? Where are the masse…

This feels like a troll comment, in that it asks a back-handed question, to highlight the shortcomings of a comparable example, more than the question voices honest curiosity regarding the question as it may be superficially posed. Possibly in an effort to lead the loaded question down a negative path, such that responses will lend voice to an opinion one might read between the lines. But first and foremost, no one f…

Not my intent to make a troll comment. But, yes, "the subway" in NYC does STILL smell like pee and vomit in many places and, yes, it is chaotic. That's been my impression of subways in many but not all cities.

I think that it's possible to do better. I question why so many cities allow their public spaces to decay to such a low level while others seem to cherish their spaces.

Re: Stockholm’s deepest subway station is also an ecological wonder

#14

Post by drakonka »

consto wrote: post #12
crispyambulance wrote: post #6

Ok, but where are the people in the photos? Even a google image search reveals photos much like on altas obscura: vast tastefully designed cavernous space dotted with but a few token humans. It seems suspiciously clean and well maintained compared to NYC metro. Floors polished, no screaming lunatics, no cracked, floors, walls, ceilings. I am willing to bet it doesn't even smell like pee and vomit? Where are the masse…

I was in Stockholm a few weeks ago and among other things, went to visit this subway station. Granted I didn't visit during rush hour, but it was quiet, clean and rather nice. The station itself may be the deepest, but it isn't the busiest, and if you look at a map it makes sense. It's a single stop away from T-Centralan where all of the lines converge and it is the last station on the line. Leaving the station you e…

This is correct - Swedes have an odd habit of leaving Sweden during the best part of the year weather-wise! Granted I'm exaggerating; many don't leave the country entirely but go out to their summerhouses for the month of July. Because most people take the entirety of July off (many businesses shut down completely for the month), that's when they take their longer trips. Stockholm suddenly becomes very quiet (perfect for me as a resident who prefers to stay in the city during this time). I hear that this year fewer people actually chose to go away than usual.

Re: Stockholm’s deepest subway station is also an ecological wonder

#15

Post by consto »

drakonka wrote: post #14
consto wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was in Stockholm a few weeks ago and among other things, went to visit this subway station. Granted I didn't visit during rush hour, but it was quiet, clean and rather nice. The station itself may be the deepest, but it isn't the busiest, and if you look at a map it makes sense. It's a single stop away from T-Centralan where all of the lines converge and it is the last station on the line. Leaving the station you e…

This is correct - Swedes have an odd habit of leaving Sweden during the best part of the year weather-wise! Granted I'm exaggerating; many don't leave the country entirely but go out to their summerhouses for the month of July. Because most people take the entirety of July off (many businesses shut down completely for the month), that's when they take their longer trips. Stockholm suddenly becomes very quiet (perfect…

Not surprised fewer went away this year. I was travelling around for nearly four weeks and it rained once, at 8pm. The weather and temperature were beautiful, in the high 20s to low 30s even in Stockholm!

Re: Stockholm’s deepest subway station is also an ecological wonder

#16

Post by atombender »

waterbear wrote: post #10
crispyambulance wrote: post #6

Ok, but where are the people in the photos? Even a google image search reveals photos much like on altas obscura: vast tastefully designed cavernous space dotted with but a few token humans. It seems suspiciously clean and well maintained compared to NYC metro. Floors polished, no screaming lunatics, no cracked, floors, walls, ceilings. I am willing to bet it doesn't even smell like pee and vomit? Where are the masse…

This feels like a troll comment, in that it asks a back-handed question, to highlight the shortcomings of a comparable example, more than the question voices honest curiosity regarding the question as it may be superficially posed. Possibly in an effort to lead the loaded question down a negative path, such that responses will lend voice to an opinion one might read between the lines. But first and foremost, no one f…

That's a weirdly long reply considering you seem to agree with the poster on everything, except that they committed the unforgivable crime of using the wrong word for the subway system, and the part about the smell.

I'm in NYC, and the subways may be powerwashed now and then, but I have to side with the parent here: They do still routinely smell. Not just the stations, either. It's a common sight, even during rush hour, to see cars that are completely empty except for a single scruffy-looking person with plastic bags for shoes; there's a reason nobody else goes into that car.

I'm from Scandinavia, and this summer I traveled back with my American girlfriend. She couldn't get over how clean and tidy everything was. Not just the cities and roads, but also the subway stations and trains: No cracked tiles, rusty beams or random brown water dripping from the ceiling, or puddles of mysterious green matter; modern signage, electronic boards, elevators, escalators; digital ticketing; and so on. The trains zoom in almost silently, and the cars are spacious and comfortable. She said she felt like she'd traveled 20 years into the future.

While you can talk about economic factors — budgets, age of the system, etc. — my thesis is that it also comes down to cultural differences. Scandinavia isn't just clean because of wealth, or a smaller population; it's that cleanliness and tidiness is part of the culture, and it's strived at almost subconsciously at every level, from the individual to the government. That only works thanks to the homogeneity of the population, where everyone share approximately the same values. NYC certainly is not like that.

Re: Stockholm’s deepest subway station is also an ecological wonder

#17

Post by so33 »

harryh wrote: post #11
noir_lord wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because half the American population supports a party that thinks public spending should be banned. So you end up with the classic 'privatise the profits, socialise the costs' setup. I don't understand why people can't see that some public spending is an economic force multiplier. I mean US infrastructure is notoriously bad for a developed economy, you have thousands of bridges that need massive remedial work to make…

Issues with US infrastructure are not due to a lack of spending but a HUGE lack of efficiency in that spending. The US actually spends more than most OECD countries on this sort of thing. The reasons behind this poor efficiency are complex and no one really knows how to fix it. Here is an interesting article on the NYC Subway System. It's obviously about one small slice of US infrastructure but the general story is t…

>it's worth noting that the Stockholm subway system is operated by MTR Corporation, a for-profit corporation based on Hong Kong

It’s also worth noting that the MTR Corporation is majority owned by the Hong Kong government and, at least in Hong Kong, operates on a strict SLA where they are fined for delays.

Re: Stockholm’s deepest subway station is also an ecological wonder

#18

Post by bogomipz »

noir_lord wrote: post #9
gumby wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those problems don't plague most other metros of the same vintage (e.g. Berlin, Paris, Moscow, St Petersburg, Tokyo, Osaka...) even though homeless people and vomit are prevalent there too. I don't know why NYC and BART have to have those issues.

Because half the American population supports a party that thinks public spending should be banned. So you end up with the classic 'privatise the profits, socialise the costs' setup. I don't understand why people can't see that some public spending is an economic force multiplier. I mean US infrastructure is notoriously bad for a developed economy, you have thousands of bridges that need massive remedial work to make…

>"Because half the American population supports a party that thinks public spending should be banned. So you end up with the classic 'privatise the profits, socialise the costs' setup."

Except that New York and California - the locations of NYC's MTA and SF's BART are both overwhelmingly Democrat strongholds.

Neither are Republican places. This is true at both the city and state level, which is where the control and funding for these metros comes from not the federal level.

Re: Stockholm’s deepest subway station is also an ecological wonder

#19

Post by joecool1029 »

bogomipz wrote: post #18
noir_lord wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because half the American population supports a party that thinks public spending should be banned. So you end up with the classic 'privatise the profits, socialise the costs' setup. I don't understand why people can't see that some public spending is an economic force multiplier. I mean US infrastructure is notoriously bad for a developed economy, you have thousands of bridges that need massive remedial work to make…

>"Because half the American population supports a party that thinks public spending should be banned. So you end up with the classic 'privatise the profits, socialise the costs' setup." Except that New York and California - the locations of NYC's MTA and SF's BART are both overwhelmingly Democrat strongholds. Neither are Republican places. This is true at both the city and state level, which is where the control and…

> Neither are Republican places. This is true at both the city and state level, which is where the control and funding for these metros comes from not the federal level.

Wrong about NY. Albany's government might as well be from another planet compared to NYC. They currently have a Republican controlled Senate.

And it is the state-level that usually hamstrings the MTA. 2009 was a particularly bad year in which the MTA budget got raided [1] and the government was in a deadlock [2].

[1] https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2010/03/09/albany-didnt-cut-the-...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_New_York_State_Senate_lea...

Re: Stockholm’s deepest subway station is also an ecological wonder

#20

Post by tokyodude »

joecool1029 wrote: post #19
bogomipz wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"Because half the American population supports a party that thinks public spending should be banned. So you end up with the classic 'privatise the profits, socialise the costs' setup." Except that New York and California - the locations of NYC's MTA and SF's BART are both overwhelmingly Democrat strongholds. Neither are Republican places. This is true at both the city and state level, which is where the control and…

> Neither are Republican places. This is true at both the city and state level, which is where the control and funding for these metros comes from not the federal level. Wrong about NY. Albany's government might as well be from another planet compared to NYC. They currently have a Republican controlled Senate. And it is the state-level that usually hamstrings the MTA. 2009 was a particularly bad year in which the MTA…

should follow Japan?

https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2011/10/why-tokyos-pr...

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