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Study: Today’s dads are engaging more with their kids

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Re: Study: Today’s dads are engaging more with their kids

#11

Post by mi100hael »

cimmanom wrote: post #9
rconti wrote: post #7

My employer just increased their family leave from 12 weeks to 20 weeks, which is a great perk. These days nobody seems to differentiate from maternity vs paternity leave, which is a great idea because, aside from the value it provides fathers, it also gets rid of the idea that the mother should get more time because mothers should be more involved. (alas, you can argue that it ignores the physical sacrifices the mot…

That extra paternity leave can give the dad the opportunity to be around to assist the mom while she's recovering from the birth - which helps her too. (And recovering emotionally as well as physically - post-partum depression can be paralyzing.) It's just too bad that there's no way to offer an equivalent benefit for women without partners to provide them the same sort of support.

I don't follow what you're lamenting. That women without partners lack partners?

Re: Study: Today’s dads are engaging more with their kids

#12

Post by tgb »

delbel wrote: post #6

I was trying to understand andrewclunn now dead comment below. Basically he was saying there was no need for the author of the article (not the study) to write "toxic masculinity" narrative. When I clicked on the PDF, to scan for the word "toxic" I was unable to open the PDF. Did the author of the article Jon McBride artificially put this narrative spin on the study? If so, I don't understand why somebody would do th…

I don't follow you, the article author is quoting the study's co-author when toxic masculinity is brought up.

Re: Study: Today’s dads are engaging more with their kids

#13

Post by mi100hael »

evilantnie wrote: post #10
delbel wrote: post #6

I was trying to understand andrewclunn now dead comment below. Basically he was saying there was no need for the author of the article (not the study) to write "toxic masculinity" narrative. When I clicked on the PDF, to scan for the word "toxic" I was unable to open the PDF. Did the author of the article Jon McBride artificially put this narrative spin on the study? If so, I don't understand why somebody would do th…

I don't see the comment you're referring to, but McBride was quoting one of the authors of the study. Technically this isn't "spin", Toxic Masculinity and Hegemonic Masculinity are both fields of study in psychology having to do with promotion of dominance and violence. I think both fields influenced this study. It looks like they developed a Parent-Child-Conflict scale that included spanking, hitting, or threatening…

Spanking is considered to be a "toxic" display of masculinity these days?

Re: Study: Today’s dads are engaging more with their kids

#14

Post by GuiA »

monocasa wrote: post #8
rconti wrote: post #7

My employer just increased their family leave from 12 weeks to 20 weeks, which is a great perk. These days nobody seems to differentiate from maternity vs paternity leave, which is a great idea because, aside from the value it provides fathers, it also gets rid of the idea that the mother should get more time because mothers should be more involved. (alas, you can argue that it ignores the physical sacrifices the mot…

Additionally, equal paternity leave is a great thing for women's rights too. When employers will see the same leave for their employees when they have a child regardless of gender, then there's less of a rational reason to discriminate against women in the hiring process.

This is very important. I once worked for the CEO of a startup who told me that he was hesitant to hire women because if they got pregnant “it’d totally screw us over”.

Re: Study: Today’s dads are engaging more with their kids

#15

Post by dsfyu404ed »

delbel wrote: post #6

I was trying to understand andrewclunn now dead comment below. Basically he was saying there was no need for the author of the article (not the study) to write "toxic masculinity" narrative. When I clicked on the PDF, to scan for the word "toxic" I was unable to open the PDF. Did the author of the article Jon McBride artificially put this narrative spin on the study? If so, I don't understand why somebody would do th…

Probably something to do with this:

>The study also showed a correlation between fathers who exhibit negative aspects of traditional masculinity and fathers who are less involved with their children.

>“It’s important to understand what masculinity is and is not,” Shafer said. “In some circles, when people hear terms like hegemonic or toxic masculinity, they think those are attacking all men. Not so. There are some very beneficial aspects of masculinity — being goal-oriented or being loyal, for example. However, we are talking about more problematic aspects of masculinity — like aggression, detached relationships, not showing emotion and failing to ask for help. These are negative aspects of traditional masculinity, and our research suggests it hurts families.”

Some of that I take issue with as well. Being able to seriously turn down your emotions or at least not show them is a really useful skill in situations where emotions run high. I would certainly have no problem if my own children (regardless of gender) were less emotional, I think it's probably better than being the same distance from "average" in the other direction.

Re: Study: Today’s dads are engaging more with their kids

#16

Post by patrickdavey »

philipkglass wrote: post #3

My dad lost his job when I was 7 years old and my sister was 5. He went through 5 years of un- and under-employment. It was harrowing for him and my mom. But he also said in his later years that he would not have been there to see his kids growing up if he'd maintained the steady career progression that he originally expected. I have many fond memories of doing things with my dad during those years. He showed me how…

That's a really lovely story, thanks for sharing it. Wish I could upvote twice :)

Re: Study: Today’s dads are engaging more with their kids

#17

Post by yedava »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #15
delbel wrote: post #6

I was trying to understand andrewclunn now dead comment below. Basically he was saying there was no need for the author of the article (not the study) to write "toxic masculinity" narrative. When I clicked on the PDF, to scan for the word "toxic" I was unable to open the PDF. Did the author of the article Jon McBride artificially put this narrative spin on the study? If so, I don't understand why somebody would do th…

Probably something to do with this: >The study also showed a correlation between fathers who exhibit negative aspects of traditional masculinity and fathers who are less involved with their children. >“It’s important to understand what masculinity is and is not,” Shafer said. “In some circles, when people hear terms like hegemonic or toxic masculinity, they think those are attacking all men. Not so. There are some ve…

I don't think authors mean that men need to be "emotional" all the time. They seem to be saying that being detached and hiding emotions prevents men from seeking help or forming stronger relationships.

Re: Study: Today’s dads are engaging more with their kids

#18

Post by Karishma1234 »

ksenzee wrote: post #5
Karishma1234 wrote: post #4

I believe that is a side effect of increased productivity and prosperity but is this study conditioned on the children having dads in first place? Because I believe single mother phenomenon is on a rapid rise in USA. What about children who dont know their dads ?

They were studying fathers, so their denominator was fathers, not children. There's plenty of research showing that fathers make a big difference in their children's lives and happiness. From what I can tell this study doesn't speak to that one way or the other.

My point has been that even though fathers are spending more time with children on an average all children are receiving lesser fatherly attention on an average. May be fathers who love children are staying in marriage thus giving a bias to the whole study.

Re: Study: Today’s dads are engaging more with their kids

#19

Post by Yetanfou »

delbel wrote: post #6

I was trying to understand andrewclunn now dead comment below. Basically he was saying there was no need for the author of the article (not the study) to write "toxic masculinity" narrative. When I clicked on the PDF, to scan for the word "toxic" I was unable to open the PDF. Did the author of the article Jon McBride artificially put this narrative spin on the study? If so, I don't understand why somebody would do th…

I think this field - sociology - and the humanities in general have become so much politicised that it is very hard to find articles on subjects like these which do not read like an action plan for some or other political group. While I could not get the article through Wiley I did find it on Sci-Hub:

http://sci-hub.tw/https://doi.org/10.1111/jomf.12476

And yes, with lines like "... Given that hegemonic masculinity persists as the dominant gender norm in the United States, the results from this study suggest that further increasing father involvement may require changing the current gendered structure of society ..." it could just as well have been a point of action for some feminist organisation as a research article. This in return will cause the article to be dismissed out of hand by those on 'the other side' - often describing themselves as being 'red-pilled' after Cassie Jaye's documentary 'The Red Pill' on the subject of modern feminism versus the men's rights movement [1].

In my own opinion this article does not pass the muster as it tries to fit the concept of fatherhood in an ideological framework which only fits those who are already on board. While the actual term 'toxic masculinity' is not used it is clear that the concept is seen as valid and as a driving factor behind the supposed failure to be 'good fathers'. In short, it tries to portray a causality between the acceptance of 'modern gender ideology' (in contrast to 'traditional gender ideology') and good fathering. This is a political standpoint, not a scientific conclusion and as such this article and the conclusions drawn in it lose their relevance.

[1] http://theredpillmovie.com/

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