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Unboxing Our New Desktop Pick and Place Machine

sparkfun.com

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Re: Unboxing Our New Desktop Pick and Place Machine

#11

Post by eggsome »

vonnieda wrote: post #9
zdw wrote: post #2

Interesting that for such an inexpensive but specialized hardware device it still has a "phone home on boot" feature. Given what this device does compared to a 3d printer (xyz axis movement, suction head, part reel incrementer, webcam + identification software), it seems like a sufficiently motivated hobbyist could come up with something passably similar in the same price ballpark.

I'm the founder/author of OpenPnP, which exists to do exactly this. I've been working on the project for about 6 years now and I'm happy to say that lots of hobbyists, small companies, maker spaces, etc. have built and are running OpenPnP based pick and place machines. It's a harder problem than it seems, as I've found out over the past 6 years. While the basics are quite similar to a 3D printer, PnP has some unique…

For those interested, here is a video/demo of OpenPnP from LCA2016:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9BGVYnaOs8

(great project by the way!)

Re: Unboxing Our New Desktop Pick and Place Machine

#12

Post by abetusk »

To me, here are the most relevant bits of why they chose the CHMT36VA over others:

    Let me say that the needs or SparkX are slightly odd.
    We need to build 10-50 of a design and see how it
    sells. As it sells we may need to build 100-500pcs.
    If a design needs more than 500 pieces then it
    immediately gets moved over to our proper SMD
    production lines with much more capable machines.
    SparkX needed something small and quick to setup.
    After evaluating all the various vendors we decided
    on the CHMT36VA. It seemed to be the best fit of
    low-cost and most flexible while being able to get
    the job done.
Right before it:

    ... the nail in the coffin for the Neodyn 4 in my eyes
    ... he says the feeders aren’t that great, they are
    challenging to load, and machine makes mispicks quite
    often. Why spend ~$10k on a machine when I can have a
    cheaper machine with less hassle? The CHMT36VA is far
    from perfect but I can work around the problems.
It's not that the CHMT36VA (the $2.8k PnP machine in question) is great or competes with "industrial" pick and place machines, it's that it's optimized for small to medium runs. To me, this is very much in line with "fail fast" or "lean startup" philosophy but for electronics. SparkFun can make a small experiment with minimal risk.

Re: Unboxing Our New Desktop Pick and Place Machine

#13

Post by princeb »

vvanders wrote: post #4
zdw wrote: post #2

Interesting that for such an inexpensive but specialized hardware device it still has a "phone home on boot" feature. Given what this device does compared to a 3d printer (xyz axis movement, suction head, part reel incrementer, webcam + identification software), it seems like a sufficiently motivated hobbyist could come up with something passably similar in the same price ballpark.

> it seems like a sufficiently motivated hobbyist could come up with something passably similar in the same price ballpark. This is one of those things that sounds trivial but has tons of hidden gotcha's. EEVBlog usually breaks it down pretty well but I can't find any of the recent ones he's reviewed.

> This is one of those things that sounds trivial but has tons of hidden gotcha's.

to support your point, from 2 weeks ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16184255

Re: Unboxing Our New Desktop Pick and Place Machine

#14

Post by Animats »

utopcell wrote: post #10

There are definitely somewhat mature DIY alternatives such as LitePlacer [1] and there is ongoing effort towards an open-source software stack for PnP machines [2], but for this area to really pick up, sub-$500 kits are probably necessary. One could argue that hobby-level 3D printing would have gone nowhere if 3D printers were at a ~$3,000 level. [1] https://www.liteplacer.com/ [2] http://openpnp.org/

Has anyone seen a Liteplacer in action? All the info I can find on it is from the seller.

LitePlacer is designed for one-off jobs. It gets its parts from cut tape, not reels. It uses its vision system to line up on the parts tapes, so the tapes don't have to be precisely positioned. It's quite slow for a pick and place machine, but far faster than doing it by hand.

Doesn't put down solder paste, though.

There are a lot of low-end pick and place machines, but few critical evaluations of them.

Re: Unboxing Our New Desktop Pick and Place Machine

#15

Post by gh02t »

hoopladler wrote: post #6
gh02t wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PnP doesn't make sense for a hobbyist though, that's the problem. A PnP is a tool for someone making a hundred or more of the exact same design, not something you usually do unless you're selling something. It's not worth the considerable time required to set up feed reels and all the other stuff required for a PnP if you're only making a few boards. There are open source PnP designs though: https://hackaday.io/proje…

As a hobbyist, I'd like one. You could do projects using hundreds or thousands of devices that are -at the moment- out of reach not for reasons of price, but rather because it would take too long to assemble the devices in question. For instance, tagging and tracking wild animals, or getting really granular local climate data. Electronics just gets more interesting the more it moves away from the monolithic device ap…

You're not gonna be able to pick-and-place anything with hundreds/thousands of parts at a hobby price point. Those kinds of machines are massive by necessity and hugely complex; I just can't imagine it happening for the very small number of people who would want to do something like that. If it did happen by some miracle, it'd have to follow from some sort of major technical advance.

If you're one of the handful of hobbyists that want to do such complex projects I think contract manufacturing is probably a more realistic option. Not sure if you've ever set up a PnP before but it's a huge pain in the ass. I'd rather stencil and tweezer as long it was remotely practical. They are utterly mesmerizing to watch work once they're set up however...

Re: Unboxing Our New Desktop Pick and Place Machine

#16

Post by marshray »

HeyLaughingBoy wrote: post #7
hoopladler wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a hobbyist, I'd like one. You could do projects using hundreds or thousands of devices that are -at the moment- out of reach not for reasons of price, but rather because it would take too long to assemble the devices in question. For instance, tagging and tracking wild animals, or getting really granular local climate data. Electronics just gets more interesting the more it moves away from the monolithic device ap…

Hundreds or thousands of something is typically not a hobbyist venture. Also remember that placing parts is only one step of the process. If you're going to automate assembly by purchasing a P&P, you should also be ready to do high-volume stenciling and have a fast oven. In any case, the time spent aligning the machine and setting up reels can be a significant fraction of the time to just place parts manually. In som…

> Hundreds or thousands of something is typically not a hobbyist venture.

But isn't this just begging the question?

If hobbyists can make use of it, then by definition it's a hobbyist venture. Bringing down size, cost, and complexity is exactly the path by which so much has become available to hobbyists these days.

Wasn't that long ago that a laser cutter, heaven forbid a 3d printer, was for pro shops only.

Re: Unboxing Our New Desktop Pick and Place Machine

#17

Post by jacquesm »

vonnieda wrote: post #9
zdw wrote: post #2

Interesting that for such an inexpensive but specialized hardware device it still has a "phone home on boot" feature. Given what this device does compared to a 3d printer (xyz axis movement, suction head, part reel incrementer, webcam + identification software), it seems like a sufficiently motivated hobbyist could come up with something passably similar in the same price ballpark.

I'm the founder/author of OpenPnP, which exists to do exactly this. I've been working on the project for about 6 years now and I'm happy to say that lots of hobbyists, small companies, maker spaces, etc. have built and are running OpenPnP based pick and place machines. It's a harder problem than it seems, as I've found out over the past 6 years. While the basics are quite similar to a 3D printer, PnP has some unique…

That's a super project and I'm really surprised this is the first time I hear about it if you've been working on this for 6 years.

Re: Unboxing Our New Desktop Pick and Place Machine

#18

Post by gh02t »

marshray wrote: post #16
HeyLaughingBoy wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hundreds or thousands of something is typically not a hobbyist venture. Also remember that placing parts is only one step of the process. If you're going to automate assembly by purchasing a P&P, you should also be ready to do high-volume stenciling and have a fast oven. In any case, the time spent aligning the machine and setting up reels can be a significant fraction of the time to just place parts manually. In som…

> Hundreds or thousands of something is typically not a hobbyist venture. But isn't this just begging the question? If hobbyists can make use of it, then by definition it's a hobbyist venture. Bringing down size, cost, and complexity is exactly the path by which so much has become available to hobbyists these days. Wasn't that long ago that a laser cutter, heaven forbid a 3d printer, was for pro shops only.

Yeah but I think there is a fundamental difference here. A 3D printer enables you to do things you can't do otherwise (fabricate custom mechanical parts). A pick-and-place enables you to do stuff you can already do with tweezers except in the most extreme cases. And likely do it faster than with a pick-and-place, because they require quite a lot of work to configure.

Edit: a good analogy is a homebrewer putting caps on beer bottles. You can do it by hand with a simple tool pretty easily - even capping 100 bottles at once is no sweat, really. It just doesn't make sense to have an automated bottle capping machine even if it was cheap, because it takes up space and ends up taking more effort to set up for a small run than it saves you. Pardon the pun, but the bottleneck lies elsewhere.

Re: Unboxing Our New Desktop Pick and Place Machine

#20

Post by ChuckMcM »

abetusk wrote: post #12

To me, here are the most relevant bits of why they chose the CHMT36VA over others: Let me say that the needs or SparkX are slightly odd. We need to build 10-50 of a design and see how it sells. As it sells we may need to build 100-500pcs. If a design needs more than 500 pieces then it immediately gets moved over to our proper SMD production lines with much more capable machines. SparkX needed something small and quic…

I am waiting for the emergence of nano factories. Basically vertically integrated businesses like Sparkfun that can design and manufacture a very wide range of products on site, sufficient to capture the value at the exploratory front end of product design and development.
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