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Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

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Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#11

Post by School-Cotton »

SomeStupidPoint wrote: post #5
frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #2

Question for the HN crowd: do you think tech-workers will begin to unionize? It seems to me that (in general) they've got such a nice position in the economy there's probably a bit of an "if it ain't broke don't fix it" mentality. Is that correct?

I honestly think programmers are just demonstrating that they skew politically inept by not unionizing. Well, not a union as such, but if you look at other professional degrees, almost all of them have powerful trade groups that represent the workers -- doctors, engineers, lawyers, etc. I think it speaks more to political ineptitude and the newness of the field that programming doesn't even have the same support stru…

What do you mean by "other" professional degrees?

There's no "professional degree" to become a programmer and I'd like to keep it that way.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#12

Post by bahman2000 »

frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #2

Question for the HN crowd: do you think tech-workers will begin to unionize? It seems to me that (in general) they've got such a nice position in the economy there's probably a bit of an "if it ain't broke don't fix it" mentality. Is that correct?

may be one way to fight age-ism in the industry

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#13

Post by psyc »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #10
SomeStupidPoint wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I honestly think programmers are just demonstrating that they skew politically inept by not unionizing. Well, not a union as such, but if you look at other professional degrees, almost all of them have powerful trade groups that represent the workers -- doctors, engineers, lawyers, etc. I think it speaks more to political ineptitude and the newness of the field that programming doesn't even have the same support stru…

The downvotes speak volumes of the cognitive dissonance. Everone is fully in control of their destiny through their rugged individualism and bootstraps until they're laid off and packing up to head back home from SFBA because they have no worker protections. I suppose everyone has to learn the hard way (again) during the next downturn.

The comment you're replying to conflated gatekeeping associations, which aim to keep people out of the field to bolster demand, with worker protections.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#14

Post by toomuchtodo »

School-Cotton wrote: post #11
SomeStupidPoint wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I honestly think programmers are just demonstrating that they skew politically inept by not unionizing. Well, not a union as such, but if you look at other professional degrees, almost all of them have powerful trade groups that represent the workers -- doctors, engineers, lawyers, etc. I think it speaks more to political ineptitude and the newness of the field that programming doesn't even have the same support stru…

What do you mean by "other" professional degrees? There's no "professional degree" to become a programmer and I'd like to keep it that way.

Comment you replied to isn't inferring a degree is required, they're inferring programmers should organize through collective actions (represented by a industry labor group) to have more leverage against corporations they work for.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#15

Post by dkhenry »

No its not. This is a union fluff piece. The reality is these are contractors who will get dropped as soon as it makes sense. Thats why you hire these services as contractors. I think the real test here will be how long till the union pushes facebook too far and they are just dropped. I have never seen a union that could actually compete with non-union shops unless there was a legal force preventing the competition.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#16

Post by aesh2Xa1 »

DINKDINK wrote: post #7

Appears to be free and non coercive negotiation until you get to the actual coersion: "In San Francisco the coalition persuaded the city transit authority to make it easier to deny permits to companies facing labor strife." If your negotiations rely on the monopoly that the state provides, is it really a negotiation?

Labor unions typically rely on the state for leverage. Individuals are powerless and organizing helps only as far as they are, even as a group, not easily replaced.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#17

Post by pjc50 »

DINKDINK wrote: post #7

Appears to be free and non coercive negotiation until you get to the actual coersion: "In San Francisco the coalition persuaded the city transit authority to make it easier to deny permits to companies facing labor strife." If your negotiations rely on the monopoly that the state provides, is it really a negotiation?

> If your negotiations rely on the monopoly that the state provides, is it really a negotiation?

Good question. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_union_busting_in_th...

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#18

Post by eli »

School-Cotton wrote: post #9
ryanworl wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A union is whatever the members want it to be. Just because traditional unions operate a certain way does not mean a union for tech workers has to operate the same way.

How would a union help me at all?

Is there anything you want from your employer that they don't already give you? If a lot of your fellow employees agree, it would be more powerful for you all to ask as a collective group rather than you to ask as a single employee.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#19

Post by brightball »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #10
SomeStupidPoint wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I honestly think programmers are just demonstrating that they skew politically inept by not unionizing. Well, not a union as such, but if you look at other professional degrees, almost all of them have powerful trade groups that represent the workers -- doctors, engineers, lawyers, etc. I think it speaks more to political ineptitude and the newness of the field that programming doesn't even have the same support stru…

The downvotes speak volumes of the cognitive dissonance. Everone is fully in control of their destiny through their rugged individualism and bootstraps until they're laid off and packing up to head back home from SFBA because they have no worker protections. I suppose everyone has to learn the hard way (again) during the next downturn.

Have you ever thought that programmer pay is as high as it is because of the lack of those protections? It's pretty well established that programmer interviewing is hard for businesses and when they get it wrong everybody needs to be able to part ways.

The speed at which this field moved is almost entirely due to the lack of encumbrances. That includes having to pay a state licensing group to say you are professionally certified in Java, risking losing your job if you fail to renew on time, having the state lock out anybody from the profession who does not meet these requirements, having unions require these certifications and pressure companies to only hire based on them.

It's a long, inefficient and useless money grab who's costs far outweigh the benefits.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#20

Post by frgtpsswrdlame »

DINKDINK wrote: post #7

Appears to be free and non coercive negotiation until you get to the actual coersion: "In San Francisco the coalition persuaded the city transit authority to make it easier to deny permits to companies facing labor strife." If your negotiations rely on the monopoly that the state provides, is it really a negotiation?

Is that not the exact point of the state? A large, unified actor is working against a bunch of individuals, those individuals are having problems organizing themselves into a large, unified actor so they ask the state for a little help, the state provides it, labor organizes and boom, workers and their bosses are on a little more level footing. All's well that ends well.
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