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Microsoft Allowed to Sue U.S. Government Over E-mail Surveillance

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Re: Microsoft Allowed to Sue U.S. Government Over E-mail Surveillance

#11

Post by boomboomsubban »

milesrout wrote: post #8
johnchristopher wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with your analysis but what happens when China or a country like NK is the new economic powerhouse to please over EU ? Will US companies lobby the US the other way then ? It's the Stallman argument again: don't defend privacy (free software) because it's convenient (hey, it's free and high tech enough), defend privacy because it's a principle that aligns with your ethics, not your economic interests.

I think the other way to look at it is this: Doing good things for bad reasons is better than doing bad things for bad reasons, even if it's not as good as doing good things for good reasons.

"Better" isn't enough, in the future the same bad reasons will have bad results.

Re: Microsoft Allowed to Sue U.S. Government Over E-mail Surveillance

#12

Post by k-mcgrady »

johnchristopher wrote: post #5
KirinDave wrote: post #3

Microsoft has an interesting stance here. As EU entities are major customers for both Windows and Azure, they're working quite hard to make sure to assure these parties that the US Government doesn't have undue influence over them. They're adding secure links and solutions they cannot eavesdrop on to Azure, and getting pretty aggressive with pushing back against US surveillance. The US benefits from EU privacy laws e…

I agree with your analysis but what happens when China or a country like NK is the new economic powerhouse to please over EU ? Will US companies lobby the US the other way then ? It's the Stallman argument again: don't defend privacy (free software) because it's convenient (hey, it's free and high tech enough), defend privacy because it's a principle that aligns with your ethics, not your economic interests.

>> new economic powerhouse to please over EU

If your point point is, for example, China being more important to MS and demanding weaker privacy I don't think it matter that they are more powerful. I think MS would have to respect the laws of whichever nation has the highest privacy expectations. Or spread data out among countries it's created in and apply different privacy rules to different servers.

Re: Microsoft Allowed to Sue U.S. Government Over E-mail Surveillance

#13

Post by k-mcgrady »

ZenoArrow wrote: post #10
yarou wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, but a judge's job is to interpret the Constitition.

Sure, but different judges are free to interpret the constitution without reference to specific interpretations. Therefore, it's not a nail in the coffin of the 4th amendment, it's just a temporary misuse (IMO).

>> Sure, but different judges are free to interpret the constitution without reference to specific interpretations.

Aren't the lower courts subject to the interpretations of the higher courts?

Re: Microsoft Allowed to Sue U.S. Government Over E-mail Surveillance

#15

Post by ZenoArrow »

k-mcgrady wrote: post #13
ZenoArrow wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but different judges are free to interpret the constitution without reference to specific interpretations. Therefore, it's not a nail in the coffin of the 4th amendment, it's just a temporary misuse (IMO).

>> Sure, but different judges are free to interpret the constitution without reference to specific interpretations. Aren't the lower courts subject to the interpretations of the higher courts?

For rulings, yes, though they can be overturned:

http://money.howstuffworks.com/10-overturned-supreme-court-c...

Is what we're seeing here a ruling, or merely a dismissal of a claim before the trial starts?

Re: Microsoft Allowed to Sue U.S. Government Over E-mail Surveillance

#16

Post by fennecfoxen »

milesrout wrote: post #8
johnchristopher wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with your analysis but what happens when China or a country like NK is the new economic powerhouse to please over EU ? Will US companies lobby the US the other way then ? It's the Stallman argument again: don't defend privacy (free software) because it's convenient (hey, it's free and high tech enough), defend privacy because it's a principle that aligns with your ethics, not your economic interests.

I think the other way to look at it is this: Doing good things for bad reasons is better than doing bad things for bad reasons, even if it's not as good as doing good things for good reasons.

> Doing good things for bad reasons is better than doing bad things for bad reasons

To use ancient metaphor, doing good things for bad reasons is like building a house on the sand: fine for a while.

"And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it."

Re: Microsoft Allowed to Sue U.S. Government Over E-mail Surveillance

#17

Post by cmiles74 »

johnchristopher wrote: post #5
KirinDave wrote: post #3

Microsoft has an interesting stance here. As EU entities are major customers for both Windows and Azure, they're working quite hard to make sure to assure these parties that the US Government doesn't have undue influence over them. They're adding secure links and solutions they cannot eavesdrop on to Azure, and getting pretty aggressive with pushing back against US surveillance. The US benefits from EU privacy laws e…

I agree with your analysis but what happens when China or a country like NK is the new economic powerhouse to please over EU ? Will US companies lobby the US the other way then ? It's the Stallman argument again: don't defend privacy (free software) because it's convenient (hey, it's free and high tech enough), defend privacy because it's a principle that aligns with your ethics, not your economic interests.

I don't believe corporations can really have ethics in any meaningful way. For sure there are people who work there, often with a good amount of control, who may be ethical. On the whole, however, they report to boards or committees. In my opinion, it's much easier for a group of people to talk themselves out of acting ethically.

Having economic interests line up with corporate interests sounds as good as it gets, to me.

Re: Microsoft Allowed to Sue U.S. Government Over E-mail Surveillance

#18

Post by thr0waway1239 »

milesrout wrote: post #8
johnchristopher wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with your analysis but what happens when China or a country like NK is the new economic powerhouse to please over EU ? Will US companies lobby the US the other way then ? It's the Stallman argument again: don't defend privacy (free software) because it's convenient (hey, it's free and high tech enough), defend privacy because it's a principle that aligns with your ethics, not your economic interests.

I think the other way to look at it is this: Doing good things for bad reasons is better than doing bad things for bad reasons, even if it's not as good as doing good things for good reasons.

>> Doing good things for bad reasons is better than doing bad things for bad reasons

The other comment mentions the problem with this stance. But it is worthwhile to point out that this is pretty much par for the course for Microsoft, seeing as they are suddenly embracing open source with a vengeance despite being the single biggest factor in its suppression for 15+ of the last 20 years.

I remember seeing someone commenting how they are impressed with the new Microsoft. To which I thought "Really? Did they actually have any other choice?"

To be sure, I will also add my view that I don't view any of the tech giants as having a moral high ground over MSFT in any way, shape or form.

Re: Microsoft Allowed to Sue U.S. Government Over E-mail Surveillance

#19

Post by 37 »

portref wrote: post #14

Dog and pony show from enthusiastic PRISM partners. "We've changed, honest!"

In the time of fake news and alternative facts, it is quite difficult to discern who is telling the truth and who isn't. After the revelations of programs like PRISM and XKeyscore it has become undeniable.

I think the general population is beginning to realize this. Obviously it takes time for people to understand things, but this information is years old at this point.

The question now is, "what do we do about it?"

Re: Microsoft Allowed to Sue U.S. Government Over E-mail Surveillance

#20

Post by criddell »

37 wrote: post #19
portref wrote: post #14

Dog and pony show from enthusiastic PRISM partners. "We've changed, honest!"

In the time of fake news and alternative facts , it is quite difficult to discern who is telling the truth and who isn't. After the revelations of programs like PRISM and XKeyscore it has become undeniable. I think the general population is beginning to realize this. Obviously it takes time for people to understand things, but this information is years old at this point. The question now is, "what do we do about it?"

> what do we do about it

Which we are you asking about?

Since this is HN, I'm guessing you are asking about technologists and founders. I would say they should end surveillance on their users. Stop using ad-tech and analytics that tracks users. Log as little as you possibly can. Stop with the excessive rights grabs over your user's data.

But HN is also a lot of people like me - typical users. To them I would say use ad-blockers every where. Use HTTPS everywhere. When you are asked to give up privacy, consider what you are getting in return. For me, I'm comfortable with using Google services because it feels like I'm getting a lot. But with Windows 10, I'm giving up a lot of privacy for nothing in return.

I have no idea what to say about people like my parents. They have no problem with universal surveillance. Privacy is important only for protecting themselves from fraud. Same goes for my kids. They care even less about privacy than my parents.

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