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What is Ethereum?

etherscripter.com

91–100 of 105 posts

Re: What is Ethereum?

#91
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah the slippery slope of imminent harm. I'm not sure I understand why I need a cryptographic identity to boycott certain vendors? I can already do that today.

You need cryptographic identities for automated boycotts. Boycotts aren't very effective today because they're hard to organize, and some vendors have relative monopolies. I think Ethereum enables both effective boycott coordination and monopoly elimination. Also, these sanctions apply to both sellers and buyers. I think economic isolation will be an effective deterrent to undesirable behavior. It's basically prison,…

I can see the boycott coordination angle (except, the offensive vendor can just change its identity).

By what mechanism does Ethereum enable monopoly elimination? (sorry, I don't know too much about Ethereum)

The problem with detainment, collective detainment, sanctions, etc. is that the local conditions when a detainment occurs may be far from the theoretical situation. What if everyone around you believes that you should be detained, but you actually shouldn't (according to the theoretical 'rule')? You just threaten to "stop funding" them and they let you go? What is to stop them from escalating the violence? Nothing.

Re: What is Ethereum?

#92
The author falls into many traps of the law vs code debate. There is a big difference between wet and dry code, as Nick Szabo, the original inventor of 'smart contracts' put it.

Admittedly, it is very stimulating to entertain thoughts in the direction the author takes his description. But in the end it is not a fruitful approach to understand ethereum and other smart contract systems.

Law has an open texture. It is deliberately broad and ambiguous to allow specific real life events to be subsumed under the conditions of a given regulation. Legal provisions do not have to be formulated in a natural language. They can be expressed in pictures or even in (pseudo) programming code. What is important is who (or what) parses and interprets the code. Wet code, i.e. legal provisions, are interpreted by humans. Nothing else can (currently) understand the "actual meaning" of a legal provision. Dry code is the opposite in that it is not interpreted by humans but by machines. Smart contracts - the official (but historically inaccurate) name of those programms that are hosted and executed on the ethereum distributed virtual machine - are written in dry code.

Ethereum is a 'rich and trusted' execution environment for software. 'Rich' because the ethereum virtual machine has access to a whole bunch of data that carries deep meaning to specific individuals and human society in general (or rather might some day). Trusted because the code execution is performed in a way that is extremely reliable. Whatever the competing interests behind the outcome of a specific computation may be, influence over the network may only be gained through computational resources (and at a later point probably stake/ether) which - in the real world - means economic resources. The achilles heel of a network such as ethereum (and bitcoin) is that "the crypto-economy" needs to stay causally disconnected from the other economy, that uses blockchains as a tool to run trusted fiduciary code (currency, insurance, identity, reputation).

"Law vs Code" is a very interesting talk to be had but there is no room for a "doomsday argument". Both are separate but intertwined domains. A fruitful approach to understanding the relationship between code and law may be Luhmann's system theory.

[further reading] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niklas_Luhmann https://medium.com/@heckerhut/smart-contracts-platforms-and-...

Re: What is Ethereum?

#93
post #88
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right in general, but if two groups use a common software platform and write the rules of the contract into it, there's less need to build up an enforcement regime. I'm not sure exactly how you're interpreting contract enforcement leading to violence, so I'll try to explain a little more. Two people make a financial agreement, hire lawyers, and depend on a powerful police force and and penal system to enforce…

Contracts that are mutually beneficial typically don't need to be enforced because they are not often broken. People who consider themselves equals give each other slack in contracts. The only use case this software fits with is is handling contracts where one party does not trust the other. Typically the more powerful party is at an advantage. There are two scenarios I see. This software is useful to powerful groups…

    Contracts that are mutually beneficial typically
    don't need to be enforced because they are not
    often broken.
This is a fundamental misunderstanding the purpose of contracts. Contracts are almost by definition mutually beneficial, at least nominally. Otherwise the only reason parties would enter into them is under duress or out of ignorance. And in fact, contracts backed by a legal system are routinely struck down if either of those cases occur.

What you are describing is a situation where neither party has an incentive to defect or default on the contract. And if that is the case then there was no need for a contract in the first place. For example, you and I agree to meet Friday night for dinner. This is a beneficial arrangement for both of us, neither of us need sign anything.

The purpose of contracts is to solve a game-theoretic problem: it is to our mutual benefit to cooperate in some way. But if we cooperate, then one of us can do even better by defecting. For example, it might be mutually beneficial for me to give you $1,000 today, and for you to give me 100 widgets on Thursday. But if I give you $1,000 today, you can do better than the original agreement by keeping the money and the widgets. So the only reason I would ever give you $1,000 is if there was some way to enforce that you give me 100 widgets. That can be by legal means, or technological means. The threat of punishment under a legal system is one traditionally effective way to incentivize you to hold your end of the bargain, and in many ways is at the very heart of what makes modern society work. A technological solution, that avoided law enforcement and judiciary systems, has the potential to be even better because there are obvious negative effects to having a large and over-reaching police force, for example.

TL;DR The enforceability of the contract is the whole point. The only reason you need a contract in the first place is because someone has an incentive to defect.

Re: What is Ethereum?

#94
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Contracts that are mutually beneficial typically don't need to be enforced because they are not often broken. People who consider themselves equals give each other slack in contracts. The only use case this software fits with is is handling contracts where one party does not trust the other. Typically the more powerful party is at an advantage. There are two scenarios I see. This software is useful to powerful groups…

Contracts that are mutually beneficial typically don't need to be enforced because they are not often broken. This is a fundamental misunderstanding the purpose of contracts. Contracts are almost by definition mutually beneficial, at least nominally. Otherwise the only reason parties would enter into them is under duress or out of ignorance. And in fact, contracts backed by a legal system are routinely struck down if…

Thanks. That's exactly it. People might try to counter by saying that specific cases don't work that way, but that's not what game theory predicts. It won't tell you the outcome of a specific instance of a conflict, but it will predict the overall trend when a winning strategy exists. Traditionally, the counter to exploitable strategies was the honor system. You trusted the people you interacted with not to take advantage of you because you believed in their character. While that can work in specific cases, it's not an overall good system for running a large-scale system of social interactions because it invites exploitation. We tend to think of corruption as inevitable, but the degree of corruption in a system is actually somewhat predictable by the incentives for it built into the rules of the system when that system runs at a large scale.

Re: What is Ethereum?

#95
post #42

This is a terrible description of Ethereum and trivializes what it is. The interesting parts of a contract are not the deadline and the transfer of funds. Even an escrow service can provide those functions. The interesting parts of the contract are the conditions of the transfer of funds, and how those are evaluated prior to effectuating the transfer, and how the obligations are enforced after the transfer. What make…

> outsourcing of third-party verifiers Since people using the network will be in control of constructing their own contracts, they will have an incentive to draft the contract in such a way as to make sure they'll have control over this "outside verifier"; it could even be same company which it chooses to be the "verifier". > trusted third-party institutions The defeats the previous attempt at decentralization, by re…

Your counterparty will not agree to an arbitrator that is not neutral, so there is market for third-party verifiers who have a reputation for trustworthiness.

Re: What is Ethereum?

#96
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need cryptographic identities for automated boycotts. Boycotts aren't very effective today because they're hard to organize, and some vendors have relative monopolies. I think Ethereum enables both effective boycott coordination and monopoly elimination. Also, these sanctions apply to both sellers and buyers. I think economic isolation will be an effective deterrent to undesirable behavior. It's basically prison,…

I can see the boycott coordination angle (except, the offensive vendor can just change its identity). By what mechanism does Ethereum enable monopoly elimination? (sorry, I don't know too much about Ethereum) The problem with detainment, collective detainment, sanctions, etc. is that the local conditions when a detainment occurs may be far from the theoretical situation. What if everyone around you believes that you…

"I can see the boycott coordination angle (except, the offensive vendor can just change its identity)."

If the vendor changes its identity but the public is still aware of the connection, the new identity goes on the sanction list. If the new identity can't be linked, then it has absolutely no reputation and has to start from scratch to convince people to buy from them. That is an effective deterrent.

"What if everyone around you believes that you should be detained, but you actually shouldn't (according to the theoretical 'rule')?"

There are no "rules". What I'm describing is a society organized via voluntary actions, but by following prescribed rules. If everyone around you thinks you should be detained, you get detained. That's how society works.

Sanctions don't prevent bad behavior, they punish bad behavior as a deterrent. Separately, a police force exists only as long as people fund it, and as long as people approve of their uses of force.

I'm not saying this is all bulletproof, but I think it's going to be fun to explore as we build the foundations for these sorts of systems.

Re: What is Ethereum?

#97
It comes down to prior restraint.

With most laws, there is the possibility of breaking them and maybe you have to face the consequences.

With this stuff, you won't be able to use the stuff for what it wasn't designed for. Stronger guarantees. It's like a car that slows down in a construction zone, and is unable to go any faster, instead of cops giving tickets. Like the 90 year old engineer guy behind the Venus project says in his interviews.

That can be useful. Not for everything, but for a whole lot. The current DRM stuff works like this.

Re: What is Ethereum?

#98
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Contracts that are mutually beneficial typically don't need to be enforced because they are not often broken. This is a fundamental misunderstanding the purpose of contracts. Contracts are almost by definition mutually beneficial, at least nominally. Otherwise the only reason parties would enter into them is under duress or out of ignorance. And in fact, contracts backed by a legal system are routinely struck down if…

Thanks. That's exactly it. People might try to counter by saying that specific cases don't work that way, but that's not what game theory predicts. It won't tell you the outcome of a specific instance of a conflict, but it will predict the overall trend when a winning strategy exists. Traditionally, the counter to exploitable strategies was the honor system. You trusted the people you interacted with not to take adva…

If you asked Nash what he thought of game theory if he was alive today, he would tell you it have very little to do with how most people interact with each other.

It was said earlier. People get into contracts out of desperation or ignorance. Therefore there are contracts that are not mutually beneficial.

Since the vast majority of the people of this world are desperate or ignorant, ethereum can become a frightening tool.

Imagine this horrific scenario. It is the year 2030. Ethereum contracts can be written where a robot comes and steals your child for slavery automatically if you don't hold your end of the bargain.

Even today people sell themselves to pay off debts. Ethereum would just be another tool creditors can use to enslave people.

Re: What is Ethereum?

#99
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Contracts that are mutually beneficial typically don't need to be enforced because they are not often broken. This is a fundamental misunderstanding the purpose of contracts. Contracts are almost by definition mutually beneficial, at least nominally. Otherwise the only reason parties would enter into them is under duress or out of ignorance. And in fact, contracts backed by a legal system are routinely struck down if…

Thanks. That's exactly it. People might try to counter by saying that specific cases don't work that way, but that's not what game theory predicts. It won't tell you the outcome of a specific instance of a conflict, but it will predict the overall trend when a winning strategy exists. Traditionally, the counter to exploitable strategies was the honor system. You trusted the people you interacted with not to take adva…

Thanks for some fascinating contributions to this thread.

I see both sides of the debate, and lean toward your side. But I also think both sides are probably wrong to speak as if we will have either one system or the other in the foreseeable future. I think it is more likely that government resources and law enforcement will exist alongside any trustless contract system, acting as a failsafe (or guarantor of exploitation, depending on your POV I suppose). Few contracts would be irreversible, and few holders of contracts would resist reversal, if physical violence from the state were brought to be bear, even if the issue had already been "settled" by software. I believe the reality is that Ethereum-style contracts would increase efficiencies in more routine, less controversial contracts and the state would remain the final recourse in more extreme cases. As some have said, 30 years down the road when machines are more intelligent, all bets are off. But for the foreseeable future, the state isn't going to wither away just yet.

As far as people obfuscating with complex contracts, yes, of course they will do that. But the obvious implication is that a class of techno-jurists will have to arise to help advise users. Again, that's not much different than the current system of clueless folk consulting attorneys, and I imagine both systems would coexist for some time to come.

Re: What is Ethereum?

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Skilled programmers will be hired to write these contracts in a complex and verbose way such that the other party is unable to understand it and may not be able to afford to hire programmers to analyze it. They will then be taken advantage of. So pretty much the same as the current legal and financial system.

Maybe. Nobody is going to sign a contract he can't understand if he get the same goods and services from somebody else with a contract he can understand.

People do exactly that all the time.
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