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Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture

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Re: Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture

#371
post #27

I think article skips anything negative. For start "lunch hour" is mandatory and in reality it means you spend extra hour at work. I would rather spend a hour with my kid than eating with my boss. Second the taxation leaves various compulsory "contributions": social, pension, wealth, tv, petrol etc. It is not 5% but more likely 50% of average salary. And third, I have totally different experience with american compan…

I never understood the ripoff that the "lunch hour" was. So... you are going to keep me away from other stuff, but I'm not paid for it? Also, you might not be hungry. If you live on a low carb high fat diet, you can easily go 12 hours or more without feeling the need to eat something. And some companies will even go to the length of banning sites like youtube. "Try to kill an hour... but we'll remove anything that co…

Because this concept stems from a time when people still performed physical work and had to eat at least 3 full meals spread over the day to stay healthy (enough).

Reading the comments here makes me realise how firmly embedded the "time not spent working is time wasted" attitude is.

Re: Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture

#372
post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Income taxes. As for sales tax, it's 7% here. Lower than most of Europe, and lower than some parts of the u.s., but not all parts of the u.s. But the low taxes more than make up for it. (about 1/2 compared to the u.s., but depends on your income level)

There's also a Value Added Tax (VAT), which probably makes comparing the Swiss and US systems difficult: https://www.ch.ch/en/vat-rates-switzerland/

I was writing about vat. That's basically sales tax. It looks like it's 8% now.

Re: Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture

#373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US was like this some years earlier. Those were the prosperous years where everyone was capable of achieving the American dream. Then the tax cuts for industries came into effect and the middle class bore the blunt of it and dwindled. The wealthy are able to avoid this since they can afford to pay an army of lawyers to channel their wealth through loopholes. A social safety net is essential for progress. There ar…

And the solution is not to split the country but to fix the broken system. Leaving aside the preposterous rewriting of U.S. history in your comment (the US was never like modern Switzerland, even when it was significantly more homogenous), your goal is not possible with the current size and cultural diversity of the US. If you want social safety nets, you need a homogeneous culture that stresses (irrationally) not ta…

I came from the other end wherein I believed social safety net and welfares breeds parasitic behavior. But now I've come to believe the benefits of those programs outweigh the negative aspect where a section may starts taking undue advantage of it.

In the absence of such safety nets, I think people will go for more safer bets which make them financially stable as opposed to riskier bets which may bring innovation but could also endanger their livelihood.

Re: Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture

#374
I think there are variations in American culture that are not covered here. For example, when somebody asks "what do you do" in Boulder, Colorado, they might be asking which outdoor sport do you do when you're not working. When somebody asks the same question in a city like Boston or NYC, they're asking about your job.

I'm not judging here, that's not to say Boulderites are slackers or East Coasters only care about work, just saying that I think the comparisons made in this article don't apply to the whole country.

Re: Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture

#375

This was just painful to read about how little the author understands about basic economics and the privileges afforded to that ONE tiny nation.

Yeah, only it's mostly true for the rest of EU as well which means that similar privileges are enjoyed by some 400M people, not so tiny nation now, eh?

Re: Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture

#376
post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's also a Value Added Tax (VAT), which probably makes comparing the Swiss and US systems difficult: https://www.ch.ch/en/vat-rates-switzerland/

I was writing about vat. That's basically sales tax. It looks like it's 8% now.

Hmmm, OK, although I note a VAT imposes higher compliance costs on an economy, and is harder to evade. And still, comparing to the US is very difficult, seeing as we have 50 state wide taxing regimes with much more complexity in what's taxed how much, many many many more local ones (the small-medium sized city I live just outside of has at least 3), and it's generally ignored on out of state mail order purchases.

Hard to compare, but probably not grossly larger in Switzerland.

I wonder how property taxes compare.

Ah, here we go, taxation as a % of GDP: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tax-Revenues-As-GDP-Perce... Overall we, the US and Switzerland, track very well.

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_Switzerland which I'm just starting to look at.

Re: Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture

#377
post #339

Switzerland is the closest to paradise a state can get. Much more libertarian on the business side than its European neighbours, much more welfare than USA and most other countries that are business friendly. All that with having the most democratic system in the world. Did you know that the 4 major political parties are all in the government together - by mutual agreement? Do you know that all three months they vote…

> Did you know that the 4 major political parties are all in the government together - by mutual agreement?

It's actually 5 different parties (with only 7 seats in the federal council).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Federal_Council#Members_...

Re: Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture

#378
post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Incomes taxes or all taxes?

Income taxes. As for sales tax, it's 7% here. Lower than most of Europe, and lower than some parts of the u.s., but not all parts of the u.s. But the low taxes more than make up for it. (about 1/2 compared to the u.s., but depends on your income level)

[deleted]

Re: Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture

#379
post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Switzerland is one of... three maybe (Luxemburg, Norway) countries with higher standard of living than the US. You have to be kidding me. The average standard of living in the US is not the fourth best in the world. The US only got universal heathcare this century, it has a ludicrous work-life balance, the minimum wage in some states is very low (and sometimes includes tipping!), the infant mortality rate is lower…

In fact America does have one of the highest standards of living. It also has one of the highest median incomes, and among the highest disposable incomes. OECD better life index: http://i.imgur.com/ekhWXeG.png Maternity leave is common in America. You are free to choose your job based on the benefits you desire, including vacation time and maternity leave. Switzerland and Germany to name two, are famous for not havin…

This is laughable... I only checked your link and saw Poland's bottom 10% having a better life index than France's bottom 10% by quite a wide margin, and Poland's top 10% having a better life index than France's top 10%. It's a complete joke.

There are at least a dozen countries I'd rather live than in the US when it comes to well being. And that's not bad by the way, for a country of over 300 million, to rank top 5 or top 10 in an very broad and averaged parameter (like standard of living) is very hard to do. There's a ton of stuff the US gets wrong, but for a country of its size and age, it's a very successful experiment in politics that does extremely well, all things considered. But that doesn't mean it's among the top 10 in standard of living, which its not.

One of the key issues with a lot of these indices is that they have tons of factors that are based on nominal income. So the OECD better life index for example, has about 10 factors, one of them is how much you earn from a job, the other is wealth and household income, another is spending on housing and real estate prices.

But what it fails to mention is that in Germany, university is free. In the Netherlands, I pay about $2k per year and I get an equal stipend from the government for free (as long as I finish, if I don't it becomes a 1% interest rate loan). In France it's a few hundred bucks per year. Similar stories for all of scandinavia etc etc, only the UK is an outlier in this regard. And if you look at the rankings, probably half of Dutch universities are in the top 100 worldwide, the average US student pays orders of magnitude more and doesn't go to even remotely a world class educational institution.

In other words, would I prefer to be an average American and rack up $30k in debt and go to an unknown local university? Or go to a world class uni in the Netherlands for free? The answer is clear.

Which is why purely droning on about income levels is ignorant. Just to make this clear, would you be willing to reduce your income by 50%, if your expenses would drop by 90%? Obviously. Yet you only look at income, and don't look at expenses. I mentioned education but it's really broad. I live in a lovely apartment by the park with my gf for a few hundred bucks in Amsterdam. My net healthcare payments are a few hundred bucks a year for full coverage. Do I really care I could make a few grand more somewhere else? Nope.

You mentioned maternity leave, one of the issues within work life balance that was covered in this thread before... according to your OECD index the US doesn't even make the top 25 in work life balance, they're in place 29. Out of a possible 36, by the way. It's poor. So you have all these financial indicators that say 'we make this much money and it's the most', yet very little about 'things like healthcare is twice as expensive, education makes you a debt slave instead of being free or near free in many other OECD countries', and then to make all that money to pay for much more expensive stuff, you sacrifice work life balance and come in at an appalling figure.

Time devoted to leisure and free time? Oh place 32 out of 36. Must be amazing. You also work some of the longest hours of all the countries in the study. The only reason the final score isn't as bad is because gender equality was better than average. (which was quite suspect given the Netherlands, quite often respected for being a frontrunner country when it comes to equality in many forms, including gender, came in last by a wide margin. Why? Because Dutch mothers tend to work part-time out of choice, considering they're better educated than men and have financial independence without having to work overtime. And the positive effects of that shows. Yet it's regarded as the worst country of all of them.)

In short, I'm not terribly impressed with the OECD index, but I think that's clear to anyone who sees Poland's bottom and top 10% rank better than say the bottom and top of France or Japan, with all due respect to Poland.

Again, for a country of 300 million I can't think of a more successful country or region than the US, an absolutely great feat for a country and one of the reasons I do admire the US, but it doesn't mean that compared to smaller countries it ranks in the top 10, often not even the top 20 depending on the metric. That's not to bash the US as it's not a fair comparison, but if you do want to make the comparison and list countries of 1 billion and 1 million in the same list, then you'll naturally end up with a lot of the small countries that are outliers at the top.

Re: Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture

#380

Can someone here elucidate the downsides to living in Switzerland, over the US, particularly for those in the HN crowd?

It's too expensive. In regards of programming jobs, sometimes it's like living 40 years ago. Racism is annoying, but normal here. And you must be proud of being Swiss. Switzerland is tiny. Finding (and keeping) friends here can be hard, because if you even dare to fart, the whole village knows about it within seconds. And you shouldn't use your brain too much, so you can keep up with the others. But I'm pretty sure t…

It's too expensive.

So's SF.

In regards of programming jobs, sometimes it's like living 40 years ago.

You program with punch cards? 40 years ago was 1975.

Racism is annoying, but normal here. And you must be proud of being Swiss.

You say that like it's a bad thing, but it's a big reason I like Switzerland. Life's too short to be ashamed of who you are.

Switzerland is tiny. Finding (and keeping) friends here can be hard, because if you even dare to fart, the whole village knows about it within seconds.

Same with any small town in the world. You say that like you're afraid of being drug out into the street and shot.

And you shouldn't use your brain too much, so you can keep up with the others. But I'm pretty sure that doesn't only apply to Switzerland, so you may safely ignore this one.

I don't think you'll have any problem with that one.

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