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Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture

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Re: Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture

#51
post #27

I think article skips anything negative. For start "lunch hour" is mandatory and in reality it means you spend extra hour at work. I would rather spend a hour with my kid than eating with my boss. Second the taxation leaves various compulsory "contributions": social, pension, wealth, tv, petrol etc. It is not 5% but more likely 50% of average salary. And third, I have totally different experience with american compan…

> For start "lunch hour" is mandatory and in reality it means you spend extra hour at work. I would rather spend a hour with my kid than eating with my boss.

Her boss invited her to lunch for one time, just to demonstrate that lunch is supposed to be (in Switzerland) something else than eating a sandwich at your desk. If you read 4 sentences further, there is:

"When I was on maternity leave, my husband came home for lunch to help me care for our daughter."

So you are free to spend the lunch hour however, also visiting your home and children. Lunch with boss is not mandatory.

Re: Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture

#52
post #2

I think living anywhere other than your home country for a while is a valuable experience. You learn to not only recognise the flaws in your own country (which you can then push to improve), but you also learn to appreciate what you previously took for granted.

That is what it was for me when I moved to the US from Switzerland.

Only then I realized that the way people live in Switzerland is not something you can take for granted and in the end made me move back.

I always hear people complain about the Swiss mindset and how they should be more like silicon valley. But what these people don't realize is the reason Switzerland is the way it is is because of the mindset.

Re: Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture

#53
post #13

In Europe, many, many people were essentially slaves. They were property of a small class of landed gentry who ruled over them with, at best, patriarchal indifference and at worst homicidal, spiteful authoritarianism. They were peasants. Then, over the course of about 200 years, some of these gentry got their heads chopped off or were stripped of their papal lands or were rounded up and put in front of a firing squad…

Peasantry was different from slavery. The middle age has actually seen slavery disappearing from Europe, which is incidentally why slaves had to be taken from somewhere else to bring to the "new world".

Class struggle that led to welfare and benefits wasn't against the gentry but against the bourgeoisie (factory owners). The same bourgeoisie who had chopped the gentry's heads before.

Re: Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture

#54
post #41

"Driving Bentleys ruined me for BMWs and their poor make quality" Switzerland is one of... three maybe (Luxemburg, Norway) countries with higher standard of living than the US. Not even Switzerland's neighbours (Italy, France, Germany) with people coming from the same populations can reproduce it. All these great states are tiny (8M people) outliers. There are more people enjoying work-life balance in America than al…

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Re: Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture

#56
post #41

"Driving Bentleys ruined me for BMWs and their poor make quality" Switzerland is one of... three maybe (Luxemburg, Norway) countries with higher standard of living than the US. Not even Switzerland's neighbours (Italy, France, Germany) with people coming from the same populations can reproduce it. All these great states are tiny (8M people) outliers. There are more people enjoying work-life balance in America than al…

Exactly.

I really do love switzerland, but a proper comparison would be to say, Marin County or Boulder or La Jolla.

I think our pockets of "switzerland" stand up pretty well in comparison.

Re: Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture

#58
Ok, I have some perspective on this.

I'm Australian, lived there most of my life. I've also lived in London (3 years), Cologne (9 months), Zurich (almost 1 year) and now New York (coming up on 5 years).

There's a lot of good things about Switzerland but there's one part of this post I think is misleading: taxes.

The poster mentions the low rate of federal tax on the average wage. This is only part of the story. I forget all the specifics but you had to pay:

- federal tax

- cantonal tax

- tax for what part of the canton you lived in (I forget what this one is called)

- 3-6 mandatory insurances covering health, retirement, unemployment and so on

Now I still think it works out rather well but don't be under any illusions it ends at 5% federal. It does not.

In a way it's good because the other way to do this is just to tax you at a higher rate and decide what to do with the money after the tax. The Swiss system is definitely more transparent. You also have choice. You can choose health insurance with a higher deductible to have lower costs. Swiss law mandates the minimum coverage required.

Switzerland is also very expensive for day to day expenses. I seem to recall seeing steak in Migros for 60+ CHF/kg. This was 10 years ago however.

I do remember reading about a supermarket chain in Germany that opened a store just across the border from Basel (about an hour from Zurich) and it had the highest turnover of any of their stores because all the Swiss went there to shop. There were limits on imports of various products like meat into Switzerland.

It's true that the public transportation in Switzerland is simply amazing. If you live in a city there's really no reason to own a car. I can't speak for more rural lifestyles.

Culturally however I think the German side of Switzerland (I have no experience with the French or Italian sides) was difficult for expats. Honestly I found Swiss Germans to be _incredibly_ rude and insular.

Now bear in mind I've lived in Germany (Cologne). Cologne I consider to be one of the friendliest places I've ever been. Like I'd be at the train station and someone would arrive and ask "Wie spaet ist es?" (what time is it?). I'd reply and they'd know immediately I was a foreigner (Auslander) and strike up a conversation. This happened _routinely_.

So whatever experiences you may have about German culture from Germany (and even Germany is a very different place in the Northwest vs the more conservative South vs the old East vs Berlin), Swiss Germans are something else.

Housing is interesting. They have (or had at least when I was there) low interest rates (~3.5%) but owning a house then deemed you with the income that house would get if you rented it out but that was offset by the interest you paid. So no one paid off their mortgages.

Also, Switzerland punitively taxes capital gains on real estate. The idea I think is to not create a speculative market in real estate as they consider that bad. So there weren't the huge swings in property values you might see in the US or Australia. That's probably good.

Still there are criticisms. Like the richest areas have the lowest taxes. This could apply in Zurich (the Gold Coast I think it was called along the east bank of Lake Zurich) or some even stayed out of the canton and, say, lived in Zug, choosing to commute each day (it's about 30-45 minutes to central Zurich).

The details may have changed but when I was there when you got a work permit (a B residence permit) it was basically a work visa. After 3 years it automatically converted to a C permit, which was essentially a residence permit, and you could stay as long as you kept renewing it.

This is in stark contrast to the US system with H1B lotteries and the gruelling torture that is the green card process.

One other thing worth noting was that unless you married someone Swiss it's almost impossible to get Swiss citizenship. I seem to recall reading about families that have lived there for 3 generations since the 1920s and were still residents.

You'll note that after being there 10 years the poster still said they had a residence permit. That won't change.

I'm a little surprised they got residence permits at all actually. One consequence of the tighter integration into Europe (it's much easier to get a work permit as an EU citizen now than it was 15 years ago) is that it became more difficult for non-EU citizens to get one. I'd be curious to know what her husband does/did.

As for the US, I live in New York and as others have said to me New York isn't the US. Not really. I like it here and I'm probably going to stay. As much as I like Switzerland (and everywhere you go really is a postcard) I'm not sure I could live there permanently.

I'd be wary of saying the Swiss way of doing things is better because, to me, the Swiss system probably isn't sustainable in the general case.

Switzerland prospered as a center of banking and of being ostensibly neutral (eg being spared the horrors of WW2). It's a bit like Monaco. I hear Monaco is amazing but Monaco is a haven for the wealthy that essentially cherrypicks its residents. Switzerland isn't quite that but it's similar.

In Geneva for example you have many workers who live in France and commute every day (there's a special work permit for this).

Re: Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture

#59
post #27

I think article skips anything negative. For start "lunch hour" is mandatory and in reality it means you spend extra hour at work. I would rather spend a hour with my kid than eating with my boss. Second the taxation leaves various compulsory "contributions": social, pension, wealth, tv, petrol etc. It is not 5% but more likely 50% of average salary. And third, I have totally different experience with american compan…

There's one thing I'm interested in since this is on HN... How easy is it to start a venture over there? Also, my old roommate from college works at CERN now as a researcher. He tells me that he can't afford to go out and eat since it's so expensive. Is this true?

I don't know anything about starting a company in Switzerland but as someone living next to the swiss border I can tell you it's really expensive to live there.

On a typical weekend the supermarkets on the german side of the border are filled with swiss people buying all sort of everyday stuff like food.

Gas is typically somewhat cheaper which is why equally many people cross the other way. ;)

Re: Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture

#60
Thanks to the way my industry is structured a bunch of my peers went overseas for a couple of months to various countries. I paid careful attention to the feedback & reached the same conclusion - USA is very far down on my list of countries I'd like to work in. Something about their work/life balance culture doesn't sit right with me. Its not that I mind hard work - I've done my fair share of 20 hour work days...but there is a dissonance there that I just can't quite place.
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