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Microsoft Small Basic

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Re: Microsoft Small Basic

#71

Post by cwbrandsma »

nly wrote: post #21
dr_zoidberg wrote: post #5

Well, if my nephews ever want to take on programming this might be a good place to start. Simple syntax, simple concepts, even the posibility of third-party libraries? Sounds interesting for teaching the young (and not so young too, but at that I'd prefer Python because of it's easier "real world usage" -- this does seem a bit too oriented at "toy programming").

Hmm... nah, go straight to Haskell ;) Just imagine them in 5th grade trying to explain Monads to their friends.

former friends. Seriously, you trying to get those kid beat up on the playground? Cause that is how kids get beat up on the playground.

Re: Microsoft Small Basic

#72

Post by curiousjorge »

jbverschoor wrote: post #58
curiousjorge wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

same here. My first run into with Basic was when I was 6 with an MSX. I was captivated by it but didn't understand what the white letters against the blue background meant. (MSX was ironically more popular in Asia than America where it was built by Microsoft). Pretty soon I got my own but it was a Korean version of MSX with only games on it. My friend had the MSX with keyboard and he showed me how to type stuff on it…

Sounds like me.. Dutchy? :)

van Coevorden is dutch I hear.

Re: Microsoft Small Basic

#73

Post by pavlov »

meta0bject wrote: post #67
Scaevolus wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Smalltalk doesn't translate as cleanly between common mathematical notation and code. Variants of BASIC are among the oldest, most minimal languages: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiny_BASIC

Variants of BASIC are also unstructured and teach bad habits, such as the construction of goto-laden messes. Smalltalk by contrast is both simple (for example, having only three levels of precedence) yet also a modern, pure OO language coupled with a graphical, live programming environment.

Are you writing this from the year 1979?

I have terrible news for you: John Lennon will be dead next year, and Altair BASIC author Bill Gates III is on track to become the richest man in the world.

Re: Microsoft Small Basic

#74

Post by yellowapple »

untog wrote: post #23
euroclydon wrote: post #8

If I put my kid in front of a modern Windows PC, leave them alone for a few hours, and hope they learn something, I'm not very optimistic. Let's say I install Small Basic on Windows 8.1 or 10. So now I've put my kid in front of an operating system that has such a high-level UI that it doesn't even have a proper list of programs. The media consuming portion of the OS is so heavily emphasized over the creative portion…

That's utter hyperbole. Windows still has a desktop mode that looks very much like Windows XP did, let alone 95 or 3.1, even.

3.1's a bit of a stretch, seeing as it didn't even have a Start Menu.

Re: Microsoft Small Basic

#75

Post by donut »

byron_fast wrote: post #51

It's nice Basic is still around. But SmileBasic is far, far more interesting: http://www.smileboom.com/product_nintendo3ds.php#01 Basic should be fun to learn, and being able to program the 3DS - with a nice library of game-ish sprites and sounds - gets you to fun a lot faster.

That does look pretty interesting. Here's the english-language page with examples: http://smilebasic.com/en/

Wish I had this when I learned to program :-)

Edit: and this hilarious video with english subtitles! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgnAmLwtP6Q

Re: Microsoft Small Basic

#76

Post by seanmcdirmid »

_vijaye wrote: post #48

Author here. I made Small Basic when I was in MS in 2008. My goal then was to remove programming language ceremony (imports, defs, etc.) and get to instant gratification. There are several others that are keeping it alive with a well maintained blog ( https://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/home?forum=sm... ) and a friendly forum that welcomes programmers of all age and expertise. There's even a strong communi…

Hey Vijaye, we definitely miss you!

You might be interested in my new work which has a very SmallBasic feel to it:

http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/smcdirm/apx/in...

Re: Microsoft Small Basic

#77

Post by meta0bject »

pavlov wrote: post #73
meta0bject wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Variants of BASIC are also unstructured and teach bad habits, such as the construction of goto-laden messes. Smalltalk by contrast is both simple (for example, having only three levels of precedence) yet also a modern, pure OO language coupled with a graphical, live programming environment.

Are you writing this from the year 1979? I have terrible news for you: John Lennon will be dead next year, and Altair BASIC author Bill Gates III is on track to become the richest man in the world.

Scaevolus touted as an advantage the minimalism of variants of BASIC over Smalltalk and linked to such a variant lacking structured programming constructs like functions. I pointed out the flaws of that and certain other variants and ended up at -4 as a consequence.

Someone should really make a comprehensive list of programming languages beyond reproach here on HN so users don't inadvertently anger the mob. Obviously Haskell would be at the top, but I never would have guessed BASIC would make the cut.

Re: Microsoft Small Basic

#78

Post by maxlybbert »

Gys wrote: post #14

I get a 503 Service Unavailable ?! Anyways, it probably did not change much in the last few days: https://web.archive.org/web/20150727212504/http://smallbasic... Its good this is (still ?) available. But I would prefer my friends or kids to learn in a more platform independent way. Like Python.

I had the same problem. The site was overloaded.

Re: Microsoft Small Basic

#79

Post by laumars »

meta0bject wrote: post #77
pavlov wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you writing this from the year 1979? I have terrible news for you: John Lennon will be dead next year, and Altair BASIC author Bill Gates III is on track to become the richest man in the world.

Scaevolus touted as an advantage the minimalism of variants of BASIC over Smalltalk and linked to such a variant lacking structured programming constructs like functions. I pointed out the flaws of that and certain other variants and ended up at -4 as a consequence. Someone should really make a comprehensive list of programming languages beyond reproach here on HN so users don't inadvertently anger the mob. Obviously…

You got down voted because your comment read like you were tarnishing all variants of BASIC with the same brush when in fact many variants do promote structured programming.

Re: Microsoft Small Basic

#80

Post by Scaevolus »

meta0bject wrote: post #67
Scaevolus wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Smalltalk doesn't translate as cleanly between common mathematical notation and code. Variants of BASIC are among the oldest, most minimal languages: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiny_BASIC

Variants of BASIC are also unstructured and teach bad habits, such as the construction of goto-laden messes. Smalltalk by contrast is both simple (for example, having only three levels of precedence) yet also a modern, pure OO language coupled with a graphical, live programming environment.

Unstructured code can actually be easier for beginners to learn. There's no magical implicit context in a loop, just a few variables they have direct control over, and an instruction pointer they control with GOTO.

Once a beginner has written a few small programs with GOTO, they'll start to feel the tedium and appreciate the benefits of structural abstractions, despite the extra things they have to learn.

You can make the same argument for writing code with simple functions and records before object oriented code -- the power of the abstraction is easier to explain once they've run into the rougher points of not having objects.

Absolute beginners are confused by polymorphism and loop constructs because they don't understand the problems the abstractions solve.

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