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What China Has Been Building in the South China Sea

nytimes.com

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Re: What China Has Been Building in the South China Sea

#131

Post by qiqing »

[deleted] wrote: post #100
timiblossom wrote: post #33

The building to convert reef to island is one of the first steps to claim the entire Southeast-Asia sea by China. It will then have the self-declared ownership right to block all sea/air traffics through this region and bully other neighboring countries. Besides having a huge oil/gas reserve and fishes, in term of economic impact, this sea is as important as or more than Panama Canal or Suez Canal. A country with the…

[deleted]

But the U.S. builds some bases pretty close to China's coasts... To be fair, some of those island bases in Asia are used for the CIA torture program, so its purported purpose is probably not aggression towards China.

Re: What China Has Been Building in the South China Sea

#132

Post by noir_lord »

qiqing wrote: post #129
sharetea wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really sounds like the fascist/autocratic states in Asia (Russia/China) with its economy failing, is slowly resorting to territorial aggression against neighboring countries in order to claim more resources. With Russia bumping against all of europe, and China bumping against Japan/Korea/Taiwan/Vietnam/Malaysia/Indonesia/Phillipines, this is boding ill for global stability.

Why is it moral for the U.S. and U.K. to build bases on random little islands in Asia, but not China and other Asian countries? Edit: Clarification, since so many of the smaller uninhabited islands have been claimed by the UK, US, and other Western nations, how is it wrong to build some uninhabited islands of your own?

Because in recent times building a base isn't used to justify ownership of all the surrounding sea's (and where that is done it's because we/they previously owned that island, like the Falklands).

Creating an island out of thin air and then claiming the territory around it is 1 step short of Sealand.

That said no we aren't perfect and we did stuff like this as well but two wrongs in this case don't make a right, this is nothing but a very destabilising move.

Re: What China Has Been Building in the South China Sea

#133

Post by lambdasquirrel »

timiblossom wrote: post #33

The building to convert reef to island is one of the first steps to claim the entire Southeast-Asia sea by China. It will then have the self-declared ownership right to block all sea/air traffics through this region and bully other neighboring countries. Besides having a huge oil/gas reserve and fishes, in term of economic impact, this sea is as important as or more than Panama Canal or Suez Canal. A country with the…

Can I call horseshit on HN again? The Strait of Malacca (which is close by) would be on par with the Panama Canal or Suez. The South China Sea is not a transit point for goods in the same manner, and is not as important.

When you look at China's claims in comparison with everyone else's claims, (especially Vietnam's), it does not look that outlandish, and everyone in the region effectively wants to be able to say "these are our waters you're passing through." The actors in this region are not as innocent as you would think they are.

http://pages.stolaf.edu/asiaforecast2014/portfolio/sino-viet...

You have to trace back to Japanese actions before WWII and look at the geopolitical insecurity of these countries in order to understand these motivations, and then recognize that China does what it does because it does not think that the powers-that-be will be able or willing to defend its economic interests in the future. The only reason why China seems scary is because it would appear as if it can actually build up and defend its claims, unlike everyone else, but even then, it doesn't have a blue water navy like the United States. They can't instigate an area denial attack on these claims without strangling their own economy either, so it's kind of a tempest in a teapot.

Re: What China Has Been Building in the South China Sea

#134

Post by noir_lord »

turar wrote: post #118
curiousjorge wrote: post #77

The question is, is President Xi willing to risk military conflict to enforce whatever new lines he draws on the map? I don't think he is. As we saw the air zone China drew that overlapped Korea, Japan and Taiwan, it was promptly ignored by all countries and when the US stealth bombers were flying China was silent . An actual combat that results in Chinese loss would be detrimental to the continuity of Xi's party and…

>> A military conflict that would be launched by China so far away from it's coastline makes no sense where US has dozens of nearby bases How does a military conflict between China and US even look like, I always thought it immediately escalates to nuclear war.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Ghost-Fleet-Novel-Next-World/dp/0544...

Read that last week, it's a about a future war between the US and the Chinese, it's bordering on sci-fi but interesting nonetheless and a good read.

Interestingly it posits a future where the US economy is in major trouble as the reason why the US Navy has been severely downsized, they had to do that since the current US Navy vs the current PLA Navy while horrific wouldn't be remotely a fair fight.

Re: What China Has Been Building in the South China Sea

#135

Post by [deleted] »

rosser wrote: post #121
[deleted] wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

In theory, China could build islands across the pacific and setup bases and missiles along the US west coast. The average depth of the Pacific Ocean is over 14,000 ft (almost exactly 4.3 km). That's a lot of dredging.

[deleted]

Re: What China Has Been Building in the South China Sea

#136

Post by perfTerm »

fraserharris wrote: post #110
georgeecollins wrote: post #104

China is very smart to pursue this strategy. The US is committed to fleet carriers and expensive aircraft, while the Chinese focus on island bases and balistic missiles. The US is hampered by the organizational inertia that keeps us poring resources into systems that worked in WW2 or the Cold War. In that sense the failurs of the F-35 are kind of a blessing for the US Navy. It forces them to think about drones. If th…

High-speed drones will still need landing strips. It will probably be optimal to have smaller, more numerous drone carriers, but not by much.

Possibly not if they're solar or hybrid powered, fuel efficient, and have large enough fuel stores. A plane recently flew around the entirety of the earth without stopping so it's certainly conceivable to fly half way around the planet and back again.

Re: What China Has Been Building in the South China Sea

#137

Post by toolsadmin »

qiqing wrote: post #129
sharetea wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really sounds like the fascist/autocratic states in Asia (Russia/China) with its economy failing, is slowly resorting to territorial aggression against neighboring countries in order to claim more resources. With Russia bumping against all of europe, and China bumping against Japan/Korea/Taiwan/Vietnam/Malaysia/Indonesia/Phillipines, this is boding ill for global stability.

Why is it moral for the U.S. and U.K. to build bases on random little islands in Asia, but not China and other Asian countries? Edit: Clarification, since so many of the smaller uninhabited islands have been claimed by the UK, US, and other Western nations, how is it wrong to build some uninhabited islands of your own?

Because supposed western superiority which can never be reached by red bears in ushankas or pandas with bamboo sticks. Except when its Larry and Sergei/etc..., but thats different because those are visionaries fleeing repressive regimes ^^. Nevermind that Bush and Clinton dynasties, amongst the others are ruling the US, and have killed millions (Bush in Iraq) with no mandate from the UN. Read "House of Bush, house of Saud" for details.

Put in google images "Grozny, Chechnya or Tibet" and see new modern cities. Now put "Baghdad, Iraq or Kabul, Afganistan". See the difference? Vast majority of burgers can't.

Re: What China Has Been Building in the South China Sea

#138

Post by tellthetruth »

qiqing wrote: post #129
sharetea wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really sounds like the fascist/autocratic states in Asia (Russia/China) with its economy failing, is slowly resorting to territorial aggression against neighboring countries in order to claim more resources. With Russia bumping against all of europe, and China bumping against Japan/Korea/Taiwan/Vietnam/Malaysia/Indonesia/Phillipines, this is boding ill for global stability.

Why is it moral for the U.S. and U.K. to build bases on random little islands in Asia, but not China and other Asian countries? Edit: Clarification, since so many of the smaller uninhabited islands have been claimed by the UK, US, and other Western nations, how is it wrong to build some uninhabited islands of your own?

I wonder how they got those little islands everywhere.

Re: What China Has Been Building in the South China Sea

#139

Post by qiqing »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #111
curiousjorge wrote: post #77

The question is, is President Xi willing to risk military conflict to enforce whatever new lines he draws on the map? I don't think he is. As we saw the air zone China drew that overlapped Korea, Japan and Taiwan, it was promptly ignored by all countries and when the US stealth bombers were flying China was silent . An actual combat that results in Chinese loss would be detrimental to the continuity of Xi's party and…

Mao had this approach: "Advance at the point of the bayonet. If you meet resistance, back off." That is, take whatever others won't actively defend, and keep taking until you run into something that they will. This seems to still be China's approach, at least in this area.

China's approach has a lot to do with historical context and some really hard lessons. Like what happens if you don't take the necessary measures to make sure you're strong and strategically positioned so other people can't blockade you. In case you don't know what happens: you get colonized, other countries kidnap your heads of state until you give them land concessions, and you get pummeled into accepting opium imports. Don't think it's just U.K. and France. The U.S. is guilty too.

And they also destroy everything in their path: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Summer_Palace

Re: What China Has Been Building in the South China Sea

#140

Post by mabbo »

qiqing wrote: post #129
sharetea wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really sounds like the fascist/autocratic states in Asia (Russia/China) with its economy failing, is slowly resorting to territorial aggression against neighboring countries in order to claim more resources. With Russia bumping against all of europe, and China bumping against Japan/Korea/Taiwan/Vietnam/Malaysia/Indonesia/Phillipines, this is boding ill for global stability.

Why is it moral for the U.S. and U.K. to build bases on random little islands in Asia, but not China and other Asian countries? Edit: Clarification, since so many of the smaller uninhabited islands have been claimed by the UK, US, and other Western nations, how is it wrong to build some uninhabited islands of your own?

Building bases is one thing- claiming territory and the right to block others from entering it is another entirely.
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