Python is the new BASIC • Hacker News Board

Re: Python is the new BASIC

#11

Post by eykanal » Fri, Jul 31, 2015, 1:33 PM UTC

cma wrote: post #4

A pretty good counter argument: http://prog21.dadgum.com/203.html Javascript doesn't require setting up apache, etc. for a kid to learn like the submission says; you can just use a static html file on your file system or dropbox etc. edit: ignore the above about apache, missed that that was in the next bullet point about PHP, not javascript

* Javascript is highly internally inconsistent (http://wtfjs.com/)

* Javascript is incredibly easy to screw up (http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/182416/A-Collection-of-J...)

* Practical use of Javascript requires understanding of HTML, CSS, the DOM, as well as the concept of browser inconsistencies

Not sure I agree with that article.

Re: Python is the new BASIC

#12

Post by giancarlostoro » Fri, Jul 31, 2015, 1:34 PM UTC

I learned Visual Basic 6 as my first language. I appreciated that my application could for the most part run on any Windows machine without a massive framework as a requirement. Don't get me wrong though, I love .NET entirely! I just enjoyed Visual Basic 6, because it felt native, and to some degree was. I still wish there was a native solution with a RAD environment like that, Delphi is nice but the syntax is quite friction filled for a beginner. Nowdays C# is the clear winner, although not yet a native solution and not yet multiplatform without friction.

Edit:

Re: Python is the new BASIC

#13

Post by david927 » Fri, Jul 31, 2015, 1:34 PM UTC

Yesterday I had to explain to my 9-year-old daughter that the bug in her Python script was due to the fact that she indented with a tab and not four spaces. Trying to publish her program so that her friends could use it was a nightmare (it's a console app).

It's 2015 and we have the brightest minds working on this stuff and it's all shit.

Re: Python is the new BASIC

#14

Post by ZitchDog » Fri, Jul 31, 2015, 1:35 PM UTC

Nope, sorry. Python is an easy, good language. Basic was not popular because it was easy, or even good, it was popular because it was everywhere. JavaScript, for all its warts and foibles, is the new basic. It's easy enough, and it's everywhere.

Re: Python is the new BASIC

#15

Post by vbezhenar » Fri, Jul 31, 2015, 1:36 PM UTC

wiremine wrote: post #9

I remember trying to program some BASIC back in 1st grade, which was 31 years ago. I was terrible at it, but I was hooked. Fast forward to today: my 4th grader asked me the other day which language he should learn, and I was stumped. I ran through the languages I know well in my head: Java, PHP, Perl, Python, Ruby, Javascript, Go, Swift... Wasn't sure what to tell him. His expectations are fairly high, due to Minecra…

I think minecraft red stones are turing complete. Someone built a simple processor with those red stones.

Re: Python is the new BASIC

#16

Post by eterm » Fri, Jul 31, 2015, 1:36 PM UTC

giancarlostoro wrote: post #12

I learned Visual Basic 6 as my first language. I appreciated that my application could for the most part run on any Windows machine without a massive framework as a requirement. Don't get me wrong though, I love .NET entirely! I just enjoyed Visual Basic 6, because it felt native, and to some degree was. I still wish there was a native solution with a RAD environment like that, Delphi is nice but the syntax is quite…

Didn't VB6 applications in the most part require the visual basic runtime?

(Although I think there was an option to compile to native?)

Re: Python is the new BASIC

#17

Post by agentultra » Fri, Jul 31, 2015, 1:37 PM UTC

One of the included batteries is a built-in Turtle graphics system. A bare Python installation is far better than the BASIC of my day. It's just much more difficult to get into since our machines don't just boot into an interpreter or even ship with one in the case of Windows.

Re: Python is the new BASIC

#18

Post by jasode » Fri, Jul 31, 2015, 1:38 PM UTC

>EDIT: When I say that Python is the new BASIC, I mean it as a compliment, to say that Python is in the best position to become a lingua franca for non-programmers to learn programming.

I think it is much more common for novice non-programmers to look at some HTML/Javascript that they're curious about and then tweak the javascript a little to change the behavior of the webpage. The tweaking may come from copying a stackoverflow.com answer without unerstanding the underlying principles (aka "cargo cult"). However, these humble beginnings act as the gateway to more systematic learning (.e.g read "Java - The Good Parts by D Crockford", etc).

Because of Javascript's pervasiveness[1], it is much more likely for a beginner to hack around with others' Javascript and then eventually write their own .js rather than download Python and start writing .py files.

Those are my personal observations. Do others see total more beginners downloading Python rather than dipping their toes into Javascript?

[1] google.com search "get started Javascript" ~211 million hits:

https://www.google.com/search?q=get+started+with+javascript

google.com search "get started Python" ~33 million hits:

https://www.google.com/search?q=get+started+with+python

Re: Python is the new BASIC

#19

Post by hello_there_you » Fri, Jul 31, 2015, 1:39 PM UTC

I believe hello world in ruby is even shorter than python (if that is what counts as a measurement here), since you can just use "p" as short of "puts", so:

p 'Hello world'

Re: Python is the new BASIC

#20

Post by hliyan » Fri, Jul 31, 2015, 1:40 PM UTC

ZitchDog wrote: post #14

Nope, sorry. Python is an easy, good language. Basic was not popular because it was easy, or even good, it was popular because it was everywhere. JavaScript, for all its warts and foibles, is the new basic. It's easy enough, and it's everywhere.

Agreed. Callback hell in JavaScript is reminiscent of the GOTO-hell we used to suffer as BASIC programs grew larger. Like you said, with all its problems it was still ubiquitous and practical. So is JavaScript.