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Open Letter to Microsoft’s CEO: Don’t Roll Back the Clock on Choice and Control

blog.mozilla.org

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Re: Open Letter to Microsoft’s CEO: Don’t Roll Back the Clock on Choice and Control

#191

Post by keithpeter »

brighteyes wrote: post #158
byuu wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Australis wasn't necessary at all, though. It broke my ability to keep tabs on the bottom, it forced the refresh button into my URL bar (the opposite end of my other navigation buttons ... making it much more annoying to use), it killed my stop button, it took the bookmark icon out of my URL bar, and it broke my ability to see full page titles. None of this enhanced anyone's productivity: it was change for the sake o…

It's really a matter of taste. I understand that you feel it wasn't necessary, and so the change was annoying. But other people felt the look was dated, and well over-due for a refresh. I guess the Firefox developers were in that group.

"But other people felt the look was dated, and well over-due for a refresh. I guess the Firefox developers were in that group."

Is the UI of a piece of software actually a fashion statement?

Should these decisions not be evidence based in some way?

(I use Firefox 39 on Linux and have no strong opinions either way - just interested in the process)

Re: Open Letter to Microsoft’s CEO: Don’t Roll Back the Clock on Choice and Control

#192

Post by batrat »

Seriously Mozilla, get over it. I know I use chrome and everybody I know uses Chrome. This is like a little kid who wants a candy every single day although he doesn't deserve it.

Every single time I hear about windows/IE/Edge I hear about Firefox/Mozilla too. What is this? Want a slice of that stake? Work for it.

Re: Open Letter to Microsoft’s CEO: Don’t Roll Back the Clock on Choice and Control

#193

Post by staticelf »

notsony wrote: post #172
Animats wrote: post #74

I am writing to you about a very disturbing aspect of Firefox 38.0.5. Specifically, that the update experience appears to have been designed to throw away the choice your customers have made about the Internet experience they want, and replace it with the Internet experience Mozilla wants them to have. When we first saw the Firefox upgrade experience that strips users of their choice by effectively overriding existin…

I don't care about Mozilla or Firefox. I used to, but not anymore. Two reasons why. First, copying Chrome's UI. Second, forcing Brendan Eich out. These days Mozilla comes across as a bunch of whiners and activists rather than a technology company. Maybe Rust will be successful but I don't want to be part of an ecosystem where straight talking and free thought is banned. Do you want to submit a pull request and be tol…

> Do you want to submit a pull request and be told not to use gendered pronouns or avoid using certain words because it makes people feel unsafe?

Is that really true? Can you give an example of that?

Re: Open Letter to Microsoft’s CEO: Don’t Roll Back the Clock on Choice and Control

#195

Post by cyphax »

keithpeter wrote: post #191
brighteyes wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's really a matter of taste. I understand that you feel it wasn't necessary, and so the change was annoying. But other people felt the look was dated, and well over-due for a refresh. I guess the Firefox developers were in that group.

"But other people felt the look was dated, and well over-due for a refresh. I guess the Firefox developers were in that group." Is the UI of a piece of software actually a fashion statement? Should these decisions not be evidence based in some way? (I use Firefox 39 on Linux and have no strong opinions either way - just interested in the process)

I don't know if you're willing to consider it evidence, but I think Apple's success is in large part due to their software and their UI's. iOs in particular.

Also, user interfaces might be closer to fashion than you would think! If you consider Windows XP's look. Imagine Windows 10 looking like that. Or consider Windows 8's different looks compared to Windows 7's. Or Google "material design" on Android Lollipop. Dang, this is exactly like fashion! :D

Re: Open Letter to Microsoft’s CEO: Don’t Roll Back the Clock on Choice and Control

#196

Post by ikurei »

smacktoward wrote: post #148
KeytarHero wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Firefox doesn't revert you to defaults You mean besides that time Firefox reverted everyone's search engine to Yahoo?

It only switched your search engine if you'd never changed from the original default (Google). If you had ever switched the search box to use a different engine, FF continued to respect that.

But why would I change it if I wanted Google, which incidentally is, I'm sure, what most people want? Leaving the default can be as much a choice as changing it.

(I'm on Mozilla's side in this discussion, but that particular move was terrible, even if not too consequential, in my opinion.)

Re: Open Letter to Microsoft’s CEO: Don’t Roll Back the Clock on Choice and Control

#197

Post by typis7 »

The article mentions the difficulty of preserving or changing the privacy settings in Windows.

Ironically if you want to prevent Firefox to "phone home", you will have performs many obscure tasks:

https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/privacy/firefox/

Some of those require changing the internals of Firefox: about:config.

I wish Firefox would just have a big red button, Disable All, instead or requiring me to preform all the tasks listed in the link, when I install Firefox. Or even better, make those choices opt-in, instead of opt-out.

Re: Open Letter to Microsoft’s CEO: Don’t Roll Back the Clock on Choice and Control

#198

Post by realusername »

tn13 wrote: post #127
brighteyes wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your sarcasm is entertaining, but the big difference is that while neither company/product is perfect, Microsoft still essentially owns the desktop with Windows. While Mozilla's Firefox is just one among several choices of web browser, currently #3 in the rankings. It is extremely easy to switch web browser. It is not easy to switch OS. On a Windows machine, if you are savvy enough, you can install Linux, but otherwi…

Mozilla is becoming irrelevant in modern market and their response seems to be to blame others. I had guessed it when they fired their CEO over some ridiculous issue. Windows is bigger does not mean they have any obligation to give space to others. Does Apple let you install YouPorn App on your iphone ? Does Google let you replace default search with Bing if you want ? Both Android and iOS are immensely successful an…

Apple is very far from a market leader, they have something like 20% of the smartphone market, it's maybe the most profitable 20% chunk but it's still 20%. When you have a near-monopoly on a market, you have some obligations regarding the competition that you would not have normally.

Re: Open Letter to Microsoft’s CEO: Don’t Roll Back the Clock on Choice and Control

#199

Post by keithpeter »

cyphax wrote: post #195
keithpeter wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"But other people felt the look was dated, and well over-due for a refresh. I guess the Firefox developers were in that group." Is the UI of a piece of software actually a fashion statement? Should these decisions not be evidence based in some way? (I use Firefox 39 on Linux and have no strong opinions either way - just interested in the process)

I don't know if you're willing to consider it evidence, but I think Apple's success is in large part due to their software and their UI's. iOs in particular. Also, user interfaces might be closer to fashion than you would think! If you consider Windows XP's look. Imagine Windows 10 looking like that. Or consider Windows 8's different looks compared to Windows 7's. Or Google "material design" on Android Lollipop. Dang…

By evidence I meant something more along these lines...

http://design.canonical.com/2013/08/usability-testing-how-do...

Re: Open Letter to Microsoft’s CEO: Don’t Roll Back the Clock on Choice and Control

#200

Post by Qwertious »

dingaling wrote: post #188
girvo wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, they make a pretty bad move, people complain (rightly so), they go back on said move in response to that feedback and "Reacting to backlash isn't an argument"? Or am I reading your point incorrectly?

The point is that Mozilla ignored their published principles ( 'The Manifesto' ), and also their stated testing and release processes, in order to shove Pocket out the door and into peoples' faces. Basically they trampled on everything for which Mozilla stood. In those circumstances merely reacting to backlash is insufficient. Heads should have rolled and assurances been given that they would alway uphold their princ…

IIRC they were testing a new API, and didn't want add-on developers to start writing against said API until they'd finalised it, so they didn't expose it. Pocket was the test-case, and once they were done testing they'd expose the API and pocket would be easily removable.

Not that that changes the fact that pocket is stuck there right now, and we have no easy way to remove it.

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