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Open Letter to Microsoft’s CEO: Don’t Roll Back the Clock on Choice and Control

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Re: Open Letter to Microsoft’s CEO: Don’t Roll Back the Clock on Choice and Control

#151

Post by byuu »

m45t3r wrote: post #96
brighteyes wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think reasonable criticisms were made regarding some of those, like Pocket. However, Australis for example was a large redesign of the UI. I'm not sure how you can support an opt-out, as that would mean supporting two codebases - two different and separate UIs, at once. Regarding bundling of DRM, it isn't bundled, but it is downloaded on demand. This is a sad thing even so, but Google, Microsoft and Netflix just le…

Yep, this is what I think too. The Pocket and Hello case could at least have a disable option, even Google allows you to disable the new features that it brings in Chrome like Google Now and more recently the "Ok Google" hotword detection. However, the Australis case is much more complicated. An UI is tons of code, if Mozilla opted too maintain two different codebases they would need to update both everytime they add…

> The Pocket and Hello case could at least have a disable option

I really don't think burying an opt-out option justifies these things.

This is the same tactic used to push malware in installers, Ubuntu's farming your search results to Amazon, and many of the new Windows 10 privacy intrusions. "You can opt-out (if you know you need to (and you know where to look (and you know about the gotchas like it only applying to enterprise customers)))"

If they were honest, these things would be opt-in. But they're not, because that wouldn't make them their money. (and if you really believe someone at Mozilla isn't getting paid for Pocket integration, then I have a bridge to sell you.)

Re: Open Letter to Microsoft’s CEO: Don’t Roll Back the Clock on Choice and Control

#152

Post by byuu »

girvo wrote: post #144
Silhouette wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

However, Australis for example was a large redesign of the UI. I'm not sure how you can support an opt-out, as that would mean supporting two codebases - two different and separate UIs, at once. Isn't it frustrating when a major software vendor takes a product you rely on, updates the whole UI in a way that makes the product worse for you and many other people using the desktop version primarily in order to try to ma…

> you'll also miss out on critical bug fixes and security updates for the old one within a few months? I'm not disagreeing with your point, but can't you use the Firefox LTS releases for that exact reason?

Nope, I used Firefox LTS 24 as long as I could. But by LTS 31 (which wasn't very long), we were back to Australis.

And Firefox 24 is missing a whole lot of really critical functionality.

You really have no choice but to trust the random third-party developer of Classic Theme Restorer not to do anything malicious, and pray that he doesn't ever quit.

Re: Open Letter to Microsoft’s CEO: Don’t Roll Back the Clock on Choice and Control

#153

Post by ncr100 »

anotherangrydev wrote: post #99
brighteyes wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your sarcasm is entertaining, but the big difference is that while neither company/product is perfect, Microsoft still essentially owns the desktop with Windows. While Mozilla's Firefox is just one among several choices of web browser, currently #3 in the rankings. It is extremely easy to switch web browser. It is not easy to switch OS. On a Windows machine, if you are savvy enough, you can install Linux, but otherwi…

>Microsoft still essentially owns the desktop with Windows So what? That doesn't mean they are obliged to comply with whatever you think is "the right thing"®. I'm gonna highlight another another big difference that you seemed to overlook. Microsoft is a company, their mission is to generate profits for their shareholders and they are the owners of Windows 10, because they developed it. Mozilla is a non-profit corpor…

Ah .. well there's that related Antitrust Lawsuit Microsoft lost in 2001.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Cor....

Re: Open Letter to Microsoft’s CEO: Don’t Roll Back the Clock on Choice and Control

#154

Post by [deleted] »

byuu wrote: post #150
brighteyes wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think reasonable criticisms were made regarding some of those, like Pocket. However, Australis for example was a large redesign of the UI. I'm not sure how you can support an opt-out, as that would mean supporting two codebases - two different and separate UIs, at once. Regarding bundling of DRM, it isn't bundled, but it is downloaded on demand. This is a sad thing even so, but Google, Microsoft and Netflix just le…

Australis wasn't necessary at all, though. It broke my ability to keep tabs on the bottom, it forced the refresh button into my URL bar (the opposite end of my other navigation buttons ... making it much more annoying to use), it killed my stop button, it took the bookmark icon out of my URL bar, and it broke my ability to see full page titles. None of this enhanced anyone's productivity: it was change for the sake o…

[deleted]

Re: Open Letter to Microsoft’s CEO: Don’t Roll Back the Clock on Choice and Control

#155

Post by pcwalton »

Lazare wrote: post #139
MichaelGG wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a very misleading summary. Mozilla is rather clear that they don't want to spec on a specific version of SQLite. The one thing that is weird is Mozilla saying that developers want "anything but SQL", which sounds like BS. But even if they were in agreement that SQL was great, the simple fact that there's no independent implementations of SQLite 3.6.whatever's SQL dialect is good enough reason to not make it a…

> Mozilla is rather clear that they don't want to spec on a specific version of SQLite Not entirely true either. From the link: > Hixie has said before he’s willing to fully spec the SQL dialect used by [WebSQL]. But since Mozilla categorically refuses to implement the spec (apparently regardless of whether the SQL dialect is specified), he doesn’t want to put in the work since it would be a comparatively poor use of…

You didn't quote Jonas' or roc's responses to that specific claim.

Re: Open Letter to Microsoft’s CEO: Don’t Roll Back the Clock on Choice and Control

#156

Post by BrendanEich »

michaelwww wrote: post #133
sonnyp wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

About WebSQL Firefox already had (and still has) Sqlite dependency (it is uses for bookmarks, history, ...) it is not the issue. The problem is that the Web SQL standard states "User agents must implement the SQL dialect supported by Sqlite 3.6.19." [0] which made agents rely on a outdated dependency and non standard (sqlite is not SQL ansible compatible) SQL. A nightmare for Web standards. They made the right (and h…

Google has the Dart VM running in Chrome and it's called Dartium. If Mozilla had not been so vigorously negative towards Dart the story of Dart and Blink may have turned out differently.

No, Google Chrome people rebelled against the overhead of a cross-language-engine garbage cycle collector. Are you aware of the technical details?

Before this, before Blink forked WebKit, Apple rejected naive DartVM pre-integration changes for the same reason:

https://lists.webkit.org/pipermail/webkit-dev/2011-December/...

Whining for the poor Google-Goliath, blaming little Mozilla-David, is rich. No comment on the Pocket deal or other recent Mozilla changes. On this tangent about Dart, I'm happy that Chrome people prevailed.

Re: Open Letter to Microsoft’s CEO: Don’t Roll Back the Clock on Choice and Control

#157

Post by BenjiBG »

solidangle wrote: post #24

It's absurd that you have to press on a button called 'Customize' (which is really scary sounding for non-experts) to get any privacy in Windows 10. If users are brave enough to press this button they get a list of nondescript options that barely explain what kind of data is sent to Microsoft. Microsoft should show always show all the privacy options to users and they should explain the pros and cons for each setting…

They already get all the data they want.

Re: Open Letter to Microsoft’s CEO: Don’t Roll Back the Clock on Choice and Control

#158

Post by brighteyes »

byuu wrote: post #150
brighteyes wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think reasonable criticisms were made regarding some of those, like Pocket. However, Australis for example was a large redesign of the UI. I'm not sure how you can support an opt-out, as that would mean supporting two codebases - two different and separate UIs, at once. Regarding bundling of DRM, it isn't bundled, but it is downloaded on demand. This is a sad thing even so, but Google, Microsoft and Netflix just le…

Australis wasn't necessary at all, though. It broke my ability to keep tabs on the bottom, it forced the refresh button into my URL bar (the opposite end of my other navigation buttons ... making it much more annoying to use), it killed my stop button, it took the bookmark icon out of my URL bar, and it broke my ability to see full page titles. None of this enhanced anyone's productivity: it was change for the sake o…

It's really a matter of taste. I understand that you feel it wasn't necessary, and so the change was annoying.

But other people felt the look was dated, and well over-due for a refresh. I guess the Firefox developers were in that group.

Re: Open Letter to Microsoft’s CEO: Don’t Roll Back the Clock on Choice and Control

#159

Post by MichaelGG »

Lazare wrote: post #139
MichaelGG wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a very misleading summary. Mozilla is rather clear that they don't want to spec on a specific version of SQLite. The one thing that is weird is Mozilla saying that developers want "anything but SQL", which sounds like BS. But even if they were in agreement that SQL was great, the simple fact that there's no independent implementations of SQLite 3.6.whatever's SQL dialect is good enough reason to not make it a…

> Mozilla is rather clear that they don't want to spec on a specific version of SQLite Not entirely true either. From the link: > Hixie has said before he’s willing to fully spec the SQL dialect used by [WebSQL]. But since Mozilla categorically refuses to implement the spec (apparently regardless of whether the SQL dialect is specified), he doesn’t want to put in the work since it would be a comparatively poor use of…

It's clear in the email thread that the "spec" world just be codifying exactly what that version of SQLite did. It's not likely they'd pick an existing SQL dialect that's compatible with SQLite, or they'd be essentially limited to that version of SQLite. Result is that you'd end up with the same problem and things would not really be compatible.

Even in that article, the a dev says he's queried the SQLite version in order to detect which exact FT options are available.

The argument for it is basically "eh but it's handy", ignoring the idea of the Web.

Re: Open Letter to Microsoft’s CEO: Don’t Roll Back the Clock on Choice and Control

#160

Post by BenjiBG »

What a false and whiny post. Mozilla is collecting the user's browsing history and sells it. All they care for is their own benefit. They are no different than Apple, Google, FB, Amazon and of course Microsoft. But they are false. Like Google telling us "don't be evil" ... ha, ha, ha

They all want to make the world a better place. Yes, sure. And Facebook is building large drones to bring the internet to Africa for education. Oh, what a noble act.

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