Isn't this wrong at some level? I support the idea of promoting programs like Women In Engg., but hiring based on race/gender is so wrong. Do you lower your hiring bar to get the numbers you've aimed for? And assuming some of these employees turn out to be under-performing, how do you deal with the appraisal process? I'm not sure if Pinterest posted this article with some other intent (like having more support progra…
For a site whose chief technical accomplishment is to allow women to pin and share cutesy images, I'm not sure having top talent really matters that much.
Our plan for a more diverse Pinterest
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Re: Our plan for a more diverse Pinterest
#32Earlier quoted context omitted.
There are plenty of folks in our industry moonlighting as trolls, and plenty not outright trolling who still hold these sorts of attitudes.
And yet their post is still getting voted into oblivion, even when nobody knows who votes for what.
Unfortunately, biases are rarely so blatant. Many are even non-malicious and entirely unconscious, like how people tend to guess older ages for black youth than white youth. http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2014/03/black-boys-ol...
Re: Our plan for a more diverse Pinterest
#33Bar charts should be sorted with the biggest ones at the top. It looks wierd the way it is. And why do all of the Latino parts have a "@" next to them when a "*" is used to reference?
Maybe because I'm not American the part that confuses me is the "Hispanic" vs "Latino", are they used to mean different things? Technically (very technically), Latin-American would include people talking French or Portuguese, while I guess Hispanic will only include Spanish speakers, e.g. not including Brazil. But I don't know if they are used in a different way in the US.
Re: Our plan for a more diverse Pinterest
#34This seems like it's pursuing skin-deep diversity. Diversity of thought is much more interesting to me, and probably much more apt to drive profits than this.
Re: Our plan for a more diverse Pinterest
#35The possibility of that being true is certainly unsettling for me because I've always assumed that hiring by merit is intrinsically superior to hiring by quota.
Re: Our plan for a more diverse Pinterest
#36This seems like it's pursuing skin-deep diversity. Diversity of thought is much more interesting to me, and probably much more apt to drive profits than this.
Re: Our plan for a more diverse Pinterest
#37Bar charts should be sorted with the biggest ones at the top. It looks wierd the way it is. And why do all of the Latino parts have a "@" next to them when a "*" is used to reference?
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2013/01/07/168818064/...
Re: Our plan for a more diverse Pinterest
#38-------------------------
But of course the minds of men and women are not identical, and recent reviews of sex differences have converged on some reliable differences. Sometimes the differences are large, with only slight overlap in the bell curves.
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With some other traits the differences are small on average but can be large at the extremes. That happens for two reasons. When two bell curves partly overlap, the farther out along the tail you go, the larger the discrepancies between the groups. For example, men on average are taller than women, and the discrepancy is greater for more extreme values. At a height of five foot ten, men outnumber women by a ratio of thirty to one; at a height of six feet, men outnumber women by a ratio of two thousand to one. Also, confirming an expectation from evolutionary psychology, for many traits the bell curve for males is flatter and wider than the curve for females. That is, there are proportionally more males at the extremes. Along the left tail of the curve, one finds that boys are far more likely to be dyslexic, learning disabled, attention deficient, emotionally disturbed, and mentally retarded (at least for some types of retardation).
At the right tail, one finds that in a sample of talented students who score above 700 (out of 800) on the mathematics section of the Scholastic Assessment Test, boys outnumber girls by thirteen to one, even though the scores of boys and girls are similar within the bulk of the curve [NOTE this was from the pre-1994 SAT where the math section was harder and not truncated at the top. Today the ratio is a bit less than 2-1 at the top end.]. With still other traits, the average values for the two sexes differ by smaller amounts and in different directions for different traits. Though men, on average, are better at mentally rotating objects and maps, women are better at remembering landmarks and the positions of objects. Men are better throwers; women are more dexterous. Men are better at solving mathematical word problems, women at mathematical calculation. Women are more sensitive to sounds and smells, have better depth perception, match shapes faster, and are much better at reading facial expressions and body language. Women are better spellers, retrieve words more fluently, and have a better memory for verbal material.
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Nonetheless, discussions of the leaky pipeline in science rarely even mention an alternative to the theory of barriers and bias. One of the rare exceptions was a sidebar to a 2000 story in Science, which quoted from a presentation at the National Academy of Engineering by the social scientist Patti Hausman: "The question of why more women don’t choose careers in engineering has a rather obvious answer: Because they don’t want to. Wherever you go, you will find females far less likely than males to see what is so fascinating about ohms, carburetors, or quarks. Reinventing the curriculum will not make me more interested in learning how my dishwasher works."
An eminent woman engineer in the audience immediately denounced her analysis as “pseudoscience.” But Linda Gottfredson, an expert in the literature on vocational preferences, pointed out that Hausman had the data on her side: “On average, women are more interested in dealing with people and men with things.” Vocational tests also show that boys are more interested in “realistic,” “theoretical,” and “investigative” pursuits, and girls more interested in “artistic” and “social” pursuits.
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The most dramatic example comes from an analysis by David Lubinski and Camilla Benbow of a sample of mathematically precocious seventh-graders selected in a nationwide talent search. The teenagers were born during the second wave of feminism, were encouraged by their parents to develop their talents (all were sent to summer programs in math and science), and were fully aware of their ability to achieve. But the gifted girls told the researchers that they were more interested in people, “social values,” and humanitarian and altruistic goals, whereas the gifted boys said they were more interested in things, “theoretical values,” and abstract intellectual inquiry. In college, the young women chose a broad range of courses in the humanities, arts, and sciences, whereas the boys were geeks who stuck to math and science. And sure enough, fewer than 1 percent of the young women pursued doctorates in math, physical sciences, or engineering, whereas 8 percent of the young men did. The women went into medicine, law, the humanities, and biology instead.
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Gottfredson points out, “If you insist on using gender parity as your measure of social justice, it means you will have to keep many men and women out of the work they like best and push them into work they don’t like.” She is echoed by Kleinfeld on the leaky pipeline in science: “We should not be sending [gifted] women the messages that they are less worthy human beings, less valuable to our civilization, lazy or low in status, if they choose to be teachers rather than mathematicians, journalists rather than physicists, lawyers rather than engineers.” These are not hypothetical worries: a recent survey by the National Science Foundation found that many more women than men say they majored in science, mathematics, or engineering under pressure from teachers or family members rather than to pursue their own aspirations— and that many eventually switched out for that reason. I will give the final word to Margaret Mead, who, despite being wrong in her early career about the malleability of gender, was surely right when she said, “If we are to achieve a richer culture, rich in contrasting values, we must recognize the whole gamut of human potentialities, and so weave a less arbitrary social fabric, one in which each diverse human gift will find a fitting place.”
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When you combine the imbalance in high-end math test scores, with the imbalance of innate preference for abstract work versus people work, it is not at all surprising that only 20% of Pinterest would be female.
If Pinterest feels like its hiring practice is not meritocratic, it should fix that.
If Pinterest feels like it is missing out on an untapped candidate pool, it should figure out how to tap that pool.
But there is zero reason to try to make the female ratio 30% for the sake of making it 30%. There is no moral reason, there is no practical reason. Males and females are different, twas ever thus. This obsession with equalizing employment number in all spheres is a bizarre (and destructive) fashion of our age.
Re: Our plan for a more diverse Pinterest
#39Earlier quoted context omitted.
I never said that they will. I'm just wondering how are they gonna do things differently to meet those numbers. I'm sure their current hiring process isn't biased towards a particular race/gender. To make it more balanced, are they planning to have a different hiring bar?
@infosample, you are right. You cannot assume minorities and women will under-perform or are under the bar. The issue of people just don't give it enough thought when hiring. At the same time, you should not hire someone solely based on their gender or race. But if there are 2 candidates with very similar skill sets and meet the standards you are looking for, hire the one who will bring you more diverse background.
Re: Our plan for a more diverse Pinterest
#40Earlier quoted context omitted.
And yet their post is still getting voted into oblivion, even when nobody knows who votes for what.
Yes, obvious trolling by a Nazi username gets downvoted. Yay us! Unfortunately, biases are rarely so blatant. Many are even non-malicious and entirely unconscious, like how people tend to guess older ages for black youth than white youth. http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2014/03/black-boys-ol...
I still say they don't represent the technical community. And it's blatantly obvious they don't represent the HN community, given the downvotes.
I'm not saying there aren't biases, sexism, ageism, or racism in tech, but I'd appreciate it if you didn't point at the obvious troll and say "this right here is the face of tech".