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MIRI's Approach – Machine Intelligence Research Institute

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Re: MIRI's Approach – Machine Intelligence Research Institute

#61
post #24

I agree with their financial approach which is funded through voluntary donations, so more power to them. But then I think NASA should be funded voluntarily and would probably have a larger budget if they did. I would donate to NASA if they repudiated government money. I reject the "how many peer-reviewed, university-associated journal articles have they published" as any measure of success. The university system is…

> onfounding the processing of meaningless symbols (what computers can do) with actual sensory awareness of existence (what brains do).

I am highly dubious that the the qualitative nature of awareness when removed from symbols is of any value.

I have long ago accepted that I "observe" my brain—that is, my brain registers its own actions. At this point, understanding in the sense of the Chinese Room Experiment is mostly a question of "how do you want to serialize these symbols?". The meaning is in the relations between symbols in that person (or computer's) mind—mind-bogglingly complex, sure, but hardly non-serializable.

I find it very interesting that consciousness itself has had such a difficult time being hammered out. I have read quite a bit of philosophy on the subject (Searle's publications among them), and it seems that there are fundamental disagreements over diction. I have had a very, very difficult time wrapping my head around the arguments for both "free will" as some kind of quantum effect (see: Penrose's The Emperor's New Mind and its "sequel") and arguments for some specially defined consciousness with requirements for "awareness". Think about a dolphin: it's fairly easy to imagine what it might be aware of, although the particulars are obviously unreachable because our brains are not wired to be aware of the same sensors of which a dolphin brain is aware. That's the practical limit, though, in terms of having difficulty grasping what a dolphin might experience—you might have the same difficulty understanding how a blind-from-birth person is aware of the world because you can't cancel out your own visual wiring. This isn't really a barrier in terms of having the same ability as a blind person (or vice versa) except where that sensory awarenesses is critical.

Now, in terms of meaning, talk to people with abnormal thought patterns—schizophrenics, bi-polar people, borderline personality people, OCD people. For instance, many with severe personality disorders have a tendency to dichotomize everything with difficulty integrating "shades of grey" into every day thinking. Others—e.g. some compulsive liars—have a very difficult time pinning down specific meanings from an objective standpoint. Compartmentalization is a mechanism allowing multiple truths in compartments while allowing contradictions in a general sense. Meaning is evidently subjective. Which is more "meaningful" to you, attempting to understand the mapping of incomprehensible numbers of physical neurons, or attempting to understand the mapping of incomprehensible numbers of non-linear equations? They both come out to about the same level of "meaningless symbol" processing with no "magic" to me.

The structure of models of current neural networks are very, very rudimentary now, and are probably dozens of orders of magnitudes less complex than those of the human brain. But current research—including analyzing the brain, understanding how to describe it in terms of current understanding of neural networks, serializing it to a model, and simulating the model—are even now, within reach of being able to simulate a nematode brain. At that point, the arguments over consciousness merge for "how big/smart/aware/whatever does a brain need to be to be conscious" and "do we have strong AI"? It becomes a game of "is this particular instance of AI closer topologically to something we have qualitatively shown to be useful as a strong AI contender via something like the chinese room experiment (I'm pretty sure a lot of humans would fail a chinese room experiment because we can be really dumb, so we can compare/contrast against a human success rate), or to something we modeled after biological research.

Consciousness is nothing special anymore. The magic is modeling the facets of awareness you find fascinating or unique, in any language you want. If you don't think you can model it, try to articulate what quality you would have difficulty modeling. I suspect I would have difficulty understanding the quality in my own experience.

Re: MIRI's Approach – Machine Intelligence Research Institute

#62
post #23
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you in terms of approach that AI will emerge first from brain emulation. I disagree with you on the timeline. I know you say 'starting around 2030', but I think that's a little ambitious. While I'm an AI/machine learning practitioner now, my recent Ph.D. work was on computational modeling of the nervous system; namely the cerebellum. The reason I say 2030 is ambitious, is because there are still a lot of…

Seems like it would be quicker to obtain full knowledge of how DNA and cell replication work. Then the simulation could grow a brain without having to fully understand it.

Going down to modeling at the level of proteins instead of neurons adds a LOT of quantitative complexity - it could be quicker to obtain enough knowledge to start that, but it could easily add 20-30 extra years of waiting for the available computing power to arrive after the already many years we still need to wait for computing power needed for a full brain simulation at neuronal level.

Re: MIRI's Approach – Machine Intelligence Research Institute

#63

MIRI is one of the success stories to emerge from the transhumanist community of the 80s to 00s. Others include the Methuselah Foundation, SENS Research Foundation, Future of Humanity Institute, and so on. When it comes to prognosticating on the future of strong AI MIRI falls on the other side of the futurist community from where I stand. I see the future as being one in which strong AI emerges from whole brain emula…

    I see the future as being one in which strong AI
    emerges from whole brain emulation, starting around
    2030 as processing power becomes cheap enough for an
    entire industry to be competing in emulating brains
    the brute force way, building on the academic efforts
    of the 2020s.
Computational power is not sufficient for whole brain emulation. You also need to know how the brain works in a huge amount of detail.

For example, we've had fast enough computers to emulate nematode brains for 20+ years but we are still not able to emulate one and have it learn.

Re: MIRI's Approach – Machine Intelligence Research Institute

#64

Are there any examples of substantive AI work to come out of MIRI? And have they succeeded at all at engaging the actual AI research community? The last time I looked at them, they were consumed with grandiose philosophical projects like "axiomatize ethics" and provably non-computable approaches like AIXI, not to mention the Harry Potter fanfic. But I'm asking this question in good faith - have things changed at MIRI…

I don't have enough knowledge to evaluate MIRI's productivity, but I've noticed an interesting thing in this subthread. On the one hand, it is widely understood (especially here on HN) that the "publish or perish" culture of modern academia is a source of lots of bad science and pointless work, and yet here we are, using number of papers as a metric for productivity. So which way is it?

tbh, the OP never mentioned published research, just asked if MIRI's been able to engage the AI Research Community

Re: MIRI's Approach – Machine Intelligence Research Institute

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that MIRI's current position no longer suggests the development of actual artificial consciousness , just the development of human-equivalent optimization processes. In other words, they argue that you can develop a process capable of solving human-level and harder problems without giving it self-awareness. And that seems like a feature: if you avoid building self-aware machine intelligences, you don't have to w…

Keep in mind that this does not sidestep the biggest practical concern with AIs, namely misalignment of values. You don't need a self-aware, conscious being to have a system with wants and values. In context of AIs, it's good to understand intelligence (including that of ourselves) as a very strong, multi-domain optimization process.

I absolutely agree that the problem remains hard. However, it's not so much that you can't avoid building a system with wants and values of its own; it's that you have to implement a system for how exactly to value what we value, especially when there are a lot of us and we don't all share identical values.

Re: MIRI's Approach – Machine Intelligence Research Institute

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right, of course; AIXI doesn't attempt to tackle the practical problem of building an AI. However, it does give us a concrete, non-hand-wavey algorithm which can reasonably be considered "AI, if we ignore resource constraints". Consider that it took ~50 years to go from the inception of AI to a formal model like AIXI; or ~40 years from the definition of NP-completeness (ie. the realisation that scalability and…

>However, it does give us a concrete, non-hand-wavey algorithm which can reasonably be considered "AI, if we ignore resource constraints". No, not really. "If we ignore resource constraints" is ignoring most of the problem . Using Kolmogorov complexity in the Solomonoff Measure also constitutes ignoring the problem of generalization by assuming an optimal compressor into existence, which again is an issue of the cogn…

> It's basically a grand victory for the fields of AI and Machine Learning that still tells us basically nothing about how an actually existing, embodied mind has to function

Special relativity tells us basically nothing about how an actually existing, physical spaceship has to function; but it does constrain our speculation about space travel (ie. no FTL, the fact that accelerating massive objects requires more and more energy, etc.).

It also provides some handy little suggestions that we may not have anticipated; eg. that mass can be converted into energy, which is certainly useful when trying to come up with practical designs.

Re: MIRI's Approach – Machine Intelligence Research Institute

#67
post #42

Whenever one of these threads comes up, all the sudden everyone is an AGI expert.

Is anyone really an AGI expert?

I would argue the people publishing in the AGI journal:

http://www.degruyter.com/view/j/jagi

Re: MIRI's Approach – Machine Intelligence Research Institute

#68
post #37

It's worth noting that in Bostrom's Superintelligence , biology is included among potential paths to superintelligence. Personally, I think it's a bit of an overlooked path. Granted, most of what Bostrom refers to in context of the biological path is mostly related to human augmentation, genetics, selective breeding - things of that nature. What I'm referring to is biology serving as a raw computational substrate. Wh…

If you're just building an artificial biological neural net, then why use human brain cells? Certainly other forms of brain cells would work pretty much as well, with less ethical issues.

Good point. However, if that is indeed the case, then would the ethical issues surrounding the use of human cells in such a fashion be properly founded?

I mean, if you took primate or whale brain tissue and grew it to scale, I think you'd have similar results. Maybe even with rat neurons, who knows.

Point being: the primary ethical issue ultimately may not be the underlying type of biological substrate, but how that substrate is grown, trained, and used.

Semantics aside, any such experiments would undoubtedly be creepy as hell, regardless of tissue type. Definitely Frankenstein stuff.

Re: MIRI's Approach – Machine Intelligence Research Institute

#69
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have enough knowledge to evaluate MIRI's productivity, but I've noticed an interesting thing in this subthread. On the one hand, it is widely understood (especially here on HN) that the "publish or perish" culture of modern academia is a source of lots of bad science and pointless work, and yet here we are, using number of papers as a metric for productivity. So which way is it?

tbh, the OP never mentioned published research, just asked if MIRI's been able to engage the AI Research Community

The OP didn't but the subsequent responses to the OP brought that up, and I was referring to them.

Re: MIRI's Approach – Machine Intelligence Research Institute

#70
post #24

I agree with their financial approach which is funded through voluntary donations, so more power to them. But then I think NASA should be funded voluntarily and would probably have a larger budget if they did. I would donate to NASA if they repudiated government money. I reject the "how many peer-reviewed, university-associated journal articles have they published" as any measure of success. The university system is…

> Few people truly understand the import of Searle's Chinese Room thought experiment

If you are talking about the AI community, this just isn't true. I have a degree in Cognitive Science, and I took a class with John Searle as an undergrad. Chinese Room was hammered away at in intro to philosophy and cogsci 101 classes, people understand it just fine. For some reason armchair philosophers seem to find it fascinating, but it fundamentally misses the point has largely been ignored in modern times for good reason.

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