GitHub threatens to shut down a repository for using the word 'retard' • Hacker News Board

Re: GitHub threatens to shut down a repository for using the word 'retard'

#791

Post by pluma » Thu, Jul 30, 2015, 6:48 AM UTC

michaelbuddy wrote: post #689

nols wrote: post #642

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not the same thing though. Calling someone a git is just calling them stupid, calling someone a retard is saying they're so stupid they're mentally disabled and they should feel ashamed for it. It's pretty insulting towards people with mental disabilities. Even Linus has said he named git after himself because he's so egotistical.

It's insulting to some perhaps due to their own self-perception but the definition of the word and its word origins are separate from how somebody feels about the way a word may have been co-opted over a period of time. Retard is interesting because its meaning is pretty clear and innocuous. The word is also quite useful. If you say a material is fire retardant, you not only are free to say this, it would be ridiculo…

SJWs are tilting at windmills. Except the windmills in this case are actual people.

The term "rebel without a cause" comes to mind. Except this time around it's borrowing a jargon that makes it sound legitimate enough to infiltrate everything.

The word they are looking for isn't "diversity", it's "gleichschaltung". For all their supposed grasp of academia, they're not very good at establishing cause and effect before getting their pitchforks ready.

Re: GitHub threatens to shut down a repository for using the word 'retard'

#792

Post by pluma » Thu, Jul 30, 2015, 7:11 AM UTC

nols wrote: post #692

dwmtm wrote: post #683

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're telling us a lot more about how you use speech in an attempt to shame other people and a lot less about how shaming and insulting 'stupid' is relative to 'so stupid'.

The problem is the historical usage of "retard" toward the mentally disabled and the trend to use the word to call not mentally disabled people mentally disabled as an insult. The "mentally disabled as an insult" part is why people don't want "retard" to be used. I don't use either of the words because I'm an adult who isn't British.

So is "idiot" as bad as "retard" then? What about "imbecile"? What about "moron"? And what about "cretin"?

If "medical description of a person with mental disabilities" was a sufficient criterion, all of these would be equally inappropriate (even in an informal / vulgar context). But even tumblr will find it hard to get outraged about the use of the word "cretin" (outside the use as a direct slur against someone with mental disabilities).

Context is important and context is not just about the original meaning and use of a word but also time. We generally find archaic insults humorous -- this isn't because the phrases were harmless at the time they were in widespread use but because they haven't been in widespread use (in their original meaning) for a significant amount of time.

The problem with "retard" isn't merely its historical usage. The problem is that that historical usage is fairly recent.

Re: GitHub threatens to shut down a repository for using the word 'retard'

#793

Post by golergka » Thu, Jul 30, 2015, 7:26 AM UTC

michaelt wrote: post #438

golergka wrote: post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, we seem to have a problem with definitions. I use definition of "censorship" that people use when they think that "censorship is bad". Because this definition implies that this kind of censorship affects everyone and they can't do anything about it. The other definition of censorship, that also includes private companies and people restricting some materials in their own domain can also be used — that seems to be…

Eh, seems to me there are lots of situations where censorship by private companies is a problem. For example, if Chinese banks / communication companies / whatever refuse to do business with human rights groups, that's a bad thing even if the companies acted without being explicitly ordered to by the government. And just because newspapers and TV stations are privately owned, doesn't mean it's a good thing if they al…

I'm sorry, you must have misunderstood my point. I'm not saying that what these companies are doing is OK. I'm actually quite appalled by Github's behaviour in OP.

I'm just saying that we should use definitions correctly, and "censorship" doesn't work here.

Re: GitHub threatens to shut down a repository for using the word 'retard'

#794

Post by tracker1 » Thu, Jul 30, 2015, 8:31 AM UTC

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #439

retrogradeorbit wrote: post #432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> because those words contribute to a culture that cause actual harm. No it doesn't. Where's your proof? Plenty of people have said plenty of nasty things throughout the years, and no one died. Yet our empire uses remote control drones to bomb small children, and that's totally OK. (Now there's a real "culture that causes actual harm") What is really harmful, and what isn't? Take a good, hard look around. Sticks and…

> Sticks and stones (and bombs) will break my bones, but words will never hurt me. I guess you've never experienced school.

that has to be one of the absolute most asinine concepts of insanity ever unleashed on the public. Only someone deprived of all sanity and logic would assume that the censoring of certain words would prevent someone from being subject to abuse. You are obviously incapable of the capacity for such understanding, what with your brain cavity filled with fish entrails and pig excrement.

I say the above as a bit tongue in cheek. I've made similar statements in the past regarding being asked to implement a language/bad-word filter on a sight. By contrast, "That is the most fucking bad-ass thing I've ever seen," is a positive statement but uses words that would normally be filtered. While the former statement is completely insensitive and insulting without using any "bad" words.

Re: GitHub threatens to shut down a repository for using the word 'retard'

#795

Post by DanBC » Thu, Jul 30, 2015, 9:17 AM UTC

Gibbon1 wrote: post #71

Gibbon1 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My brother is a retard. Your serve

So to explain myself a lot of people tell me my brother is 'autistic' Well my brother is not autistic. My brother has issues with understanding language and expressing himself. That does make it had for him to relate to ordinary people. But it doesn't mean that he has issues with socialization and emotional attachment. He desperately wants to fit in with people and have meaningful relationships with people. As such I…

When you say "people tell you" do you mean everyday people in the street, or medical professionals?

If you're talking about people in the street then I agree with you. That must be infuriating. If that's what you're talking about please do ignore the rest of this post because it's not relevant at all.

But if you're talking about medical professionals, especially those with LD and autism specialism:

Your lack of understanding of autism isn't a particularly good reason to chose to use a word that doesn't fit just because it makes you feel better. ASD is not learning disability, although people with austism can have learning disability as well.

Your stigma around autism is a poor reason to chose to use the wrong word for a condition.

Importantly there is no cure for autism, but there are treatments. By rejecting the autism diagnosis you risk rejecting useful treatments.

> As such I find the term Autistic, which assumes that he doesn't care about human emotional attachments. And assumes that he's somehow 'sick' to be extremely insulting.

There's quite a lot bundled here. About the word sick - what's the difference between retarded (a medical condition) and autism (a medical condition)?

About the social stuff: That's not true, where did you learn that? That's a caricature of autism.

http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/autistic-spectrum-disorder/Page...

http://www.autism.org.uk/about-autism/introduction/what-is-a...

People with autism have trouble with human interaction; they can have trouble understanding emotions in other people. That does not mean that they do not care about other people or that they do not crave friendship and relationships.

One of the reason that suicide is higher in people with autism is because they desire human interaction but haven't been given the skills to acheive those.

> And frankly you're never going to get off the euphemism treadmill.

Retard is an imprecise euphemism. It has been used to deny people segregate people from society; to experiment upon them without their will; to deny them medical treatment; to kill them. Learning disability (or autism, if that's what someone has) are more precise, and more neutral, terms.

Feel free to call your brother what you like. Just don't be surprised if it causes strongly negative reactions in people you meet.

Re: GitHub threatens to shut down a repository for using the word 'retard'

#796

Post by DanBC » Thu, Jul 30, 2015, 9:31 AM UTC

kazagistar wrote: post #510

shadowmint wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Frankly, good. I honestly have no issue with people managing to contain their own righteous opinions (for either side of the debate) and not smash thousands of characters of spam and spam images into issue trackers. That's not what they're for. If the issue doesn't affect you directly (and it doesnt ), and you're not a contributor to the project, then dont get involved . There are places for discussions to happen. Gi…

The issue of someone else getting censored affects everyone who might also get censored. Being silent about injustice against others, just because it does not affect you, is umwise.

A bunch of mostly rich people of mostly above average intelligence using a particular service are asked[1] to refrain from using a particular word, but who are free to set up their own servers and use whatever language they like

Versus

A lot of mostly poor, vulnerable, people of (by definition) below average intelligence, who are subjected to bullying based ontheir disability; who are segregated from society; who were sometimes sterilised against their will (sometimes without their knowledge); who were used as test subjects in medical experimentation; who were used by the Nazis to test mass-killing techniques before the Nazis started killed Jews; who are denied medical treatment; who are sometimes killed just because of their disability.

> Being silent about injustice against others, just because it does not affect you, is umwise.

Yes, I agree. I disagree about where the injustice lies.

Re: GitHub threatens to shut down a repository for using the word 'retard'

#797

Post by pennaMan » Thu, Jul 30, 2015, 10:03 AM UTC

KirinDave wrote: post #651

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #620

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that you are hurt by certain words doesn't actually grant you quite enough moral authority to call up a rage-mob and apply it to the face of every entity that acts as a medium to provide an open, public space in which some people say the words that hurt you. There is real harm in rendering public space hostage to the moral outrage of self-selected groups and individuals. It's nowhere near the harm caused by…

Censorship is a fact of life and human experience. Calling for its eradication is to call for the erasure of a fundamental aspect of human cognition. So we're going to apply the principle sensibly. The simple truth no one here wants to admit while they argue slippery slopes and excluded middles about how the only harm worth noting is total genocide: there is no real communicative value for github in allowing slurs on…

>>KirinDave/StupidMinecraftFoolin

Now someone comes along and says: I have been called a stupid fool all my life. I have reported this repo because it deeply offends me. We stupid fools prefer to refer to ourselves as brainless nincompoops.

Re: GitHub threatens to shut down a repository for using the word 'retard'

#798

Post by DanBC » Thu, Jul 30, 2015, 10:09 AM UTC

iopq wrote: post #777

DanBC wrote: post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Words do cause harm. It's a failure of imagination to think otherwise. When you use the word retard you dehumanise people with LD. You contribute to a culture where it's okay to deny those people work; to segregate them in specialist housing; to deny them medical treatment; to kill them with lack of medical treatment. It's a slippery slope to eugenics and genocide to think otherwise.

Your words caused harm to me, could you delete your comment? I am very offended.

Sure. Show me where words I use have been used by, for example, Nazis when testing their mass killing mechanisms before moving onto Jews and homosexuals. Or where my words have been used to deny people medical treatment; sometime causing the death of those people. Or where my words have been used in hate crime or hate incidents. (Hate incidents based on disability are more common than anti-Semitism in the UK, and anti Semitism is pretty common over here).

Show me the harm and I'll gladly chose differet words.

Re: GitHub threatens to shut down a repository for using the word 'retard'

#799

Post by DanBC » Thu, Jul 30, 2015, 10:21 AM UTC

gambler wrote: post #763

DanBC wrote: post #476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are cases of people who have completed suicide because of bullying based on their LD. There are cases of people who have attempted suicide because of bullying based on their LD. These are significant because people with LD are under-represented in suicide statistics. > Try it. Go on. Call me whatever you want. And watch me not give two fucks what you think. Next time you need medical treatment to keep you alive…

There are cases of people who have completed suicide because of bullying based on their LD. You cannot solve bullying by banning words. Especially in cases when those words are used in an entirely different context, having an entirely different meaning, without any profound malevolence.

The words are malevolent because they contribute to a culture where it is acceptable to treat people with LD as sub-human. You don't get to use a word and deny the long history of that word. This is nothing like, for example, the fake etymology of "nitty gritty", or confusion between the word "niggardly" with "like a nigger". The word retard has a long history and is closely associated with oppression and murder.

White people don't get to say "nigga - no, it's okay, I'm not saying nigger!"

The other confusing thing here is that people are asking for the freedom to do what they like with someone else's property, and when that person asks them to modify their behaviour they lose their shit.

This is just github saying "no shirt, no service". What happened to "their servers, their rules"?

Re: GitHub threatens to shut down a repository for using the word 'retard'

#800

Post by Allan_Smithee » Thu, Jul 30, 2015, 10:21 AM UTC

GFK_of_xmaspast wrote: post #520

Animats wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"This isn't censorship of the type that is illegal or not allowed. It is a private company deciding a word was inappropriate." As a Github user, that kind of thinking worries me. Google Code went away, and Sourceforge started packaging adware and spyware with other people's projects. They could do this because "they were a private company". Now Github's management is starting to throw their weight around. We now need…

Welcome to the only game in town.

Well, only game if you're ignorant and unimaginative...