Newegg vs. Patent Trolls: When We Win, You Win • Hacker News Board

Re: Newegg vs. Patent Trolls: When We Win, You Win

#111

Post by throwawaykf05 » Wed, Jul 29, 2015, 6:24 PM UTC

JustSomeNobody wrote: post #33

88e282102ae2e5b wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really though, their approach is to be known as the company that won't settle and isn't worth suing. Eventually, patent trolls will just avoid them.

I don't know about that. I've read plenty of articles on Ars about how incompetent the lawyers for the trolls are.

Ars has a strong anti-patent bias and they are not afraid of twisting facts to fit the narrative. Note how they made the troll lawyers look stupid in their coverage of the TQP/Newegg trial, but TQP prevailed in that one. Newegg recently got off on non-infringement, but that was because Newegg lawyers were incompetent in not bring up that defense the first time.

Their bias got so bad that even their typically anti-patent commenters called it out on one of their recent articles.

Re: Newegg vs. Patent Trolls: When We Win, You Win

#112

Post by akshat_h » Wed, Jul 29, 2015, 6:24 PM UTC

x0054 wrote: post #100

Perhaps a solution to this would be a Kickstarter like anti patent troll site. Patent trolls usually go after smaller businesses at first, businesses who could not possibly afford to fight, even if they wanted. The site would allow a business to post their legal case online, and other businesses who face similar exposure, could contribute to the defense fund. The "perk" of contributing would be that you would get acc…

This seems like a decent idea. Wonder what the lawyers have to say about it though?

Re: Newegg vs. Patent Trolls: When We Win, You Win

#113

Post by kazinator » Wed, Jul 29, 2015, 6:28 PM UTC

HeyLaughingBoy wrote: post #88

kazinator wrote: post #42

You don't really win until the legal atmosphere is such that the the key personalities behind a patent troll operation get 10 years in jail.

Do you seriously want to live in such an atmosphere? Do you really think that if that situation ever came to be then it would be the only change occurring in society? Patent trolls may suck, but IP is a thing we're not going to get rid of. As long as it's "property" it can be traded. As long as it can be traded, the possibility that the current owner has desires at odds with the original owner can arise.

> Do you seriously want to live in such an atmosphere?

Certainly. What these people are doing is effectively extortion and fraud; there should be a legal framework in which such abuses can be identified as such and treated accordingly.

The "IP" in question is not valid; it is predicated upon a lie. The lie is that the patented idea is a significant new invention without prior art. The trolls know this and exploit it by looking for obvious implementations of everyday things that could conceivably land within the language of a patent, which is a patent of specifically this type which they specifically acquired for the purpose of trolling.

Re: Newegg vs. Patent Trolls: When We Win, You Win

#114

Post by ScottBurson » Wed, Jul 29, 2015, 6:29 PM UTC

adebtlawyer wrote: post #45

tachion wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are other countries, where this issue is solved (more or less) by the fact that the side which have lost the case is covering trial costs. This does stop 'court trolling' because even is the cost of winning the case is higher than the cost of the settlement, winning the case nullifies that cost. But hey, US is special this way! (and many others... ;)

Having litigated against adversaries who use the courts primarily to be a nuisance, with little or no regard to the actual strength or weakness of their claims, I've become convinced "loser pays costs and attorney's fees of prevailing party" is a better system than what we have in the U.S.

There's an important qualifier: loser pays reasonable costs of prevailing party, and the judge decides what is reasonable. It's not automatic. This addresses the concerns about a deep-pocketed party spending lavishly and winning, and the loser being forced to pay a massive legal bill.

(I'm not an expert on the subject, but it's been discussed before on HN, and this is my recollection.)

It occurs to me that an interesting variation would be for the loser to pay an amount equal to the lesser of the two parties' legal bills. That would limit the risk, and remove the incentive for the deeper-pocketed party to spend money just to inflate the bill.

Re: Newegg vs. Patent Trolls: When We Win, You Win

#115

Post by greenNote » Wed, Jul 29, 2015, 6:32 PM UTC

x0054 wrote: post #100

Perhaps a solution to this would be a Kickstarter like anti patent troll site. Patent trolls usually go after smaller businesses at first, businesses who could not possibly afford to fight, even if they wanted. The site would allow a business to post their legal case online, and other businesses who face similar exposure, could contribute to the defense fund. The "perk" of contributing would be that you would get acc…

Seems like an insurance policy, except that you get access to the details of past settled cases. Could I not just join as soon as I get served a notice?

Re: Newegg vs. Patent Trolls: When We Win, You Win

#116

Post by kevin_thibedeau » Wed, Jul 29, 2015, 6:40 PM UTC

nandhp wrote: post #58

vermontdevil wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good points. Don't forget the Court in Eastern Texas which is a popular place for patent lawsuits. Popular because the court is friendly to patent trolls due to the revenue the court generates. [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_District_Court_f...

And the frequent charitable donations Samsung makes to causes in Marshall, TX, home of many of the the court's jurors. https://ipcloseup.wordpress.com/2015/02/25/for-samsung-chari...

> And the frequent charitable donations Samsung makes to causes in Marshall, TX, home of many of the the court's jurors.

I'd love to be a fly on the wall when an East Texas jury convenes: They all know what their verdict will be going in so I imagine they just hold out for one last free lunch and chit chat to fill up the time while they "deliberate".

Re: Newegg vs. Patent Trolls: When We Win, You Win

#117

Post by x0054 » Wed, Jul 29, 2015, 7:18 PM UTC

greenNote wrote: post #115

x0054 wrote: post #100

Perhaps a solution to this would be a Kickstarter like anti patent troll site. Patent trolls usually go after smaller businesses at first, businesses who could not possibly afford to fight, even if they wanted. The site would allow a business to post their legal case online, and other businesses who face similar exposure, could contribute to the defense fund. The "perk" of contributing would be that you would get acc…

Seems like an insurance policy, except that you get access to the details of past settled cases. Could I not just join as soon as I get served a notice?

You know how they say that the best defense is a good offense. Well, this is the same concept. Sure, you can join the defense fund at any time, but by joining early, and putting up a good fight, you are helping to make sure that you your self will never get served. By joining the fund you are also sending a message to the troll that you are willing to fight, which makes you a harder target.

Re: Newegg vs. Patent Trolls: When We Win, You Win

#118

Post by tux1968 » Wed, Jul 29, 2015, 7:20 PM UTC

x0054 wrote: post #100

Perhaps a solution to this would be a Kickstarter like anti patent troll site. Patent trolls usually go after smaller businesses at first, businesses who could not possibly afford to fight, even if they wanted. The site would allow a business to post their legal case online, and other businesses who face similar exposure, could contribute to the defense fund. The "perk" of contributing would be that you would get acc…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Invention_Network

Re: Newegg vs. Patent Trolls: When We Win, You Win

#119

Post by CamperBob2 » Wed, Jul 29, 2015, 7:26 PM UTC

throwawaykf05 wrote: post #105

brlewis wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a software engineer. Consequently I have to admit ignorance about this concept of a valid and useful patent. All I ever see is patents that hinder the Progress of Science and useful Arts. Are there really enough valid and useful patents that we should hesitate in our fight against the rest?

Can you explain why you think patents hinder progress of science and the useful arts? How many cases do you know of that people were unable to advance the arts because of a patent? People talk about patent trolls suing startups and main street shops: How many of them actually do anything technically innovative? Hinder commercialization of some old technology? Sure, patents can do that. Stifle progress? Not so much. T…

How many cases do you know of that people were unable to advance the arts because of a patent?

For one concrete example, anyone who worked on data compression outside of purely academic areas has been harmed, and by extension their customers have been harmed, by early software patents in that area. The LZW patent (infamously associated with the .GIF file format) and IBM's patents on arithmetic coding both rendered entire fields of computer science radioactive for years.

It's perhaps even more enlightening to spend some thinking about what life would be like if everything that could be patented under the incredibly loose standards of the USPTO was patented. It's safe to say you wouldn't be able to afford the computer or tablet you're typing on, nor the Internet service necessary to convey your thoughts. But this argument is also moot because neither of those technologies would be available in their present form, at any price.

Your impression is likely based on what you hear in a) tech media, which is largely supported by ads and hence welcome rage-views, and b) tech forums like this where open source is the dominant religion.

My impression is based on decades of work in the industry.

I'll give you some numbers less than 1% of patents are ever asserted

How many land mines ever explode? Does that make land mines a good thing? Patents are intellectual land mines, nothing more, nothing less.

Re: Newegg vs. Patent Trolls: When We Win, You Win

#120

Post by Yakimoto » Wed, Jul 29, 2015, 7:37 PM UTC

ScottBurson wrote: post #114

adebtlawyer wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having litigated against adversaries who use the courts primarily to be a nuisance, with little or no regard to the actual strength or weakness of their claims, I've become convinced "loser pays costs and attorney's fees of prevailing party" is a better system than what we have in the U.S.

There's an important qualifier: loser pays reasonable costs of prevailing party, and the judge decides what is reasonable. It's not automatic. This addresses the concerns about a deep-pocketed party spending lavishly and winning, and the loser being forced to pay a massive legal bill. (I'm not an expert on the subject, but it's been discussed before on HN, and this is my recollection.) It occurs to me that an interes…

Another important factor to consider;

I am small troll A suing company B. I lose, judge orders that troll A pay all the legal fees. I don't have the money, I file bankruptcy, I flee the country.

Lawyers still want to get paid. I doubt any legal team will just chase some random around into collections because "loser pays"