GitHub threatens to shut down a repository for using the word 'retard' • Hacker News Board

Re: GitHub threatens to shut down a repository for using the word 'retard'

#651

Post by KirinDave » Wed, Jul 29, 2015, 4:58 PM UTC

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #620

KirinDave wrote: post #561

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"idiot" is not a synonym for the word in question here. This is similar to saying that "t *ny" and "transsexual" are synonyms. They're not. Let me give you an example of how referring to you in an insulting way can change your attitudes and discourage conversation. 1. Words have a lesser impact on you because you've [a lucky person] who doesn't live a life were they have been used to deny you opportunity and basic hu…

The fact that you are hurt by certain words doesn't actually grant you quite enough moral authority to call up a rage-mob and apply it to the face of every entity that acts as a medium to provide an open, public space in which some people say the words that hurt you. There is real harm in rendering public space hostage to the moral outrage of self-selected groups and individuals. It's nowhere near the harm caused by…

Censorship is a fact of life and human experience. Calling for its eradication is to call for the erasure of a fundamental aspect of human cognition.

So we're going to apply the principle sensibly. The simple truth no one here wants to admit while they argue slippery slopes and excluded middles about how the only harm worth noting is total genocide: there is no real communicative value for github in allowing slurs on the site.

Calling the request to "find a synonym that is not in current use as a slur against a marginalized group of people" is such a modest and low impact request. It truly boggles my mind that this is the line so many people here want to draw.

Re: GitHub threatens to shut down a repository for using the word 'retard'

#652

Post by Retra » Wed, Jul 29, 2015, 4:59 PM UTC

PopeOfNope wrote: post #632

Retra wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't trust my livelihood to the need to say offensive things, either. Regardless, I'm going to excuse myself from this conversation. What I've done is present an analogy to you (no more of an "uninteresting non-sequitur" than your talk about cucumber eating) and apparently it fell on unwilling ears. And typically, when one's brain stops understanding analogies, that's a pretty good sign it isn't working at all. So…

I don't trust my livelihood to the need to say offensive things, either. You're trusting your livelihood to the idea that other people won't willfully misinterpret innocent phrasing on your part for their 2 minutes outrage. And typically, when one's brain stops understanding analogies, that's a pretty good sign it isn't working at all. So get some rest and think about it when you're in better condition. Aww, your arg…

We both understand each other's argument. There's something more interesting going on underneath the surface arguments; values and priorities.

You are taking what I say in rhetoric, interpreting it literally, and throwing it back in my face. That is dishonest and hypocritical at best. The reason there is something wrong with you is because you have no intention of solving any problems here, you are attempting to beat me into the ground with your intellect. Your priority here is winning the argument.

Well, you've won. Congratulations. You're the smart one who knows best. I was wrong about everything, and I'm a dull moron with nothing interesting to say. I'm not worthy of your respect, patience, or generosity.

Now interpret that as sarcasm, throw it in my face, and get the last word in; your feelings are more important than anything I have to say.

Re: GitHub threatens to shut down a repository for using the word 'retard'

#653

Post by sakagami0 » Wed, Jul 29, 2015, 5:02 PM UTC

nols wrote: post #642

kenrikm wrote: post #631

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone pointed out in the thread on Github, the term "Git" is also an offensive term. Who's going to start the petition for Github to change its name? Slippery Slopes Indeed. From Wikipedia: "Git is a mild[1] pejorative with origins in British English for a silly, incompetent, stupid, annoying, senile, elderly or childish person.[2] It is usually an insult, more severe than twit or idiot but less severe than wank…

That's not the same thing though. Calling someone a git is just calling them stupid, calling someone a retard is saying they're so stupid they're mentally disabled and they should feel ashamed for it. It's pretty insulting towards people with mental disabilities. Even Linus has said he named git after himself because he's so egotistical.

Honestly, the definition you provided is on par with what I usual go for when I use the insult directed at someone. And I'm okay with that.

Re: GitHub threatens to shut down a repository for using the word 'retard'

#654

Post by kordless » Wed, Jul 29, 2015, 5:12 PM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #252

kordless wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm imagining a nightmare scenario where, by some vauge unwritten and immature consensus mechanism, we rationalize even a slight amount of censorship as being OK.

The actual nightmare scenario is that people with learning disability are killed by doctors because those doctors think "retards have no quality of life". When people toss around the word retard they contribute to a culture that doesn't care about the high levels of violent hate crime experienced by people with a learning disability. And most posts seem to miss the point: their servers, their rules. No one is stoppin…

There are a whole slew of simulated what-ifs that we could list and all agree would be horrible and atrocious and fill our nights with shaking our heads about them. As the song by the Submarines goes, "Somethings wrong when you regret things that haven't happened yet" or as John Stienbeck's character in Grapes of Wrath put it, "Up ahead they's a thousan' lives we might live, but when it comes it'll on'y be one.”

My personal favorite was from my grandmother who said "If ifs and buts were candy and nuts, we'd all have a merry Christmas." Any way you put it, speculating on things good or bad is just speculation and doesn't deserve any feelings from me one way or the other given it's a waste of resources to dwell on things that have yet to come to pass.

Censorship is not OK. Period.

Re: GitHub threatens to shut down a repository for using the word 'retard'

#655

Post by JoshTriplett » Wed, Jul 29, 2015, 5:13 PM UTC

aerovistae wrote: post #629

JoshTriplett wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Slurs aren't discourse, or even the start of discourse. And removing them has nothing to do with pervasive surveillance. > If anyone has a problem with this developer's language, they can boycott his repo. Github did, and they did. And then someone decided to stir up trouble by posting it as though people should be offended by what Github did, rather than applauding them. Github can do as they like on their own resou…

Slurs are part of discourse. Slurs are considered a problem because they're offensive . Banning them is the first step on the road to banning offensive content. Who arbitrates what is offensive? Sure, we can agree on "The N-Word" , but how about Idiot's Guide to Web Tools?

Can you not tell the difference between "The Idiot's Guide ..." and "The R---rd's Guide ..."? "Idiot" is not a derogatory slur.

Re: GitHub threatens to shut down a repository for using the word 'retard'

#656

Post by kordless » Wed, Jul 29, 2015, 5:17 PM UTC

PopeOfNope wrote: post #454

Sir_Substance wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The actual nightmare scenario is that people with learning disability are killed by doctors because those doctors think "retards have no quality of life". Woah, that escalated quickly. How the hell did we go from offensive words to hospitals as state run eugenics labs in one sentence?

Welcome to HN. The new motto around here is "we're actually worse than reddit."

I love you.

Re: GitHub threatens to shut down a repository for using the word 'retard'

#657

Post by fiatmoney » Wed, Jul 29, 2015, 5:18 PM UTC

bsimpson wrote: post #563

fiatmoney wrote: post #81

Not only did they ask them to change the name / verbiage; in a particularly Stalinist twist they asked them to delete it from the entire history.

Isn't "never alter the history of a shared codebase" the first rule of Git?

Yes. The entire notion of the hash tree is designed to prevent it.

Re: GitHub threatens to shut down a repository for using the word 'retard'

#658

Post by golergka » Wed, Jul 29, 2015, 5:18 PM UTC

PopeOfNope wrote: post #646

golergka wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a government, it doesn't have a monopoly on violence or information. People use it freely, and they can easily get most of their information out (wikis and issues no, but it's obvious that they are not part of the repo when you start to use it). You can argue that it's bad, but for fuck's sake, don't compare it to a totalitarian regime that killed tens of millions of people. Please.

You can argue that it's bad, but for fuck's sake, don't compare it to a totalitarian regime that killed tens of millions of people. Please. Why not? Before it became official government policy to discriminate against jews in Germany, it was considered socially acceptable to do so. Those people voted in the totalitarian regime. Recognizing this as a first step towards greater atrocities is not out of line.

Actually, it was the other way around. Hitler came to power thanks to his strong-arm leader and despite his anti-semitism. His first efforts to create hate against jews were met with resistance from german society. It took several years of concentrated propaganda to change that.

No sources ATM, posting from mobile.

Re: GitHub threatens to shut down a repository for using the word 'retard'

#659

Post by dpc_pw » Wed, Jul 29, 2015, 5:23 PM UTC

Idiocy of political correctness taking it's toll. Always relevant George Carlin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o25I2fzFGoY

In 20 years, next Github will be taking down projects that have "cognitively impaired" in it, because that's what we're going to be using to insult each other.

Re: GitHub threatens to shut down a repository for using the word 'retard'

#660

Post by samch » Wed, Jul 29, 2015, 5:33 PM UTC

Kequc wrote: post #635

samch wrote: post #546

There has, for several years, been a campaign[1] promoted by the Special Olympics to end the r-word. I have signed on, and I encourage others to do so as well. I've known a lot of awesome people with intellectual disabilities who have had this label applied to them in the past. It's amazingly hurtful. No matter how you feel about Github's decision, I encourage all of us to consider how the r-word lingers in daily usa…

The word actually means to impede. So it became common usage as slang against people who were considered dumb, when it started to get callous it was used as slang against the mentally disabled. But it has just about universally not ever meant mentally disabled and I have literally never heard it used for that ever. I've seen it on some memes. You're advocating for the banishment of a word that doesn't mean what you a…

It isn't really necessary to define words on HN. I think most of us have a good idea of what common English words mean. It appears as though you genuinely, by your own admission, have no knowledge of the r-word's history of use in the latter half of the 20th century. My uncle was born in the late 1940s and has intellectual disabilities that were severely exacerbated by years spent in "mental health" facilities. Before that fate befell him, my grandmother founded one of the first schools for children with intellectual disabilities in her state. It was known then as the County School for Retarded Children. This was the appropriate term back then. Doctors, researchers, teachers, and legislators all used the r-word to describe people with intellectual disabilities. It took decades for that to fade from use, yet the stigma remains. This is how the term came to be conflated with people who are "considered dumb" as you say. That only makes it worse. People with intellectual disabilities are certainly not dumb.

Now, you claimed that the r-word has "not ever meant mentally disabled." That's simply not true.