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Newegg vs. Patent Trolls: When We Win, You Win

blog.newegg.com

21–30 of 154 posts

Re: Newegg vs. Patent Trolls: When We Win, You Win

#21
post #3

Please excuse my ignorance on this topic. - Why is this happening in the first place? - Who is this entity that grants a loose patent? - Why isn't this entity being interrogated ?

> Why is this happening in the first place?

Because US patent laws and practices allow for it

> Who is this entity that grants a loose patent?

The United States Patents and Trademark Office.

> Why isn't this entity being interrogated ?

Because there would be very little point. One part of the issue is patent laws themselves, the other part is that the USPTO is taken to task for both overly lengthy examinations[0] and insufficiently rigorous examinations. I don't have much experience with the USPTO themselves, but knowing people working in european patent offices:

1. they are judged pretty much solely on the number of patents examined and their responsiveness

2. patent offices are funded through maintenance fees (fees paid to renew the patents and keep them enforceable) creating a fucked up incentive to accept patents by default at the cost of the already very loose and subjective patentability criteria ("novelty" and "inventive step or non-obviousness")

3. especially given patent offices are generally underfunded and short-staffed, especially in high-flying specialists able to actually evaluate patents which are either complex or in novel fields (being a patent examiner is few people's idea of a great career, even less so once you've built experience and respectability in your field, and that's assuming the patent office could even hire and pay you), even more so compared to the high-powered business they face

4. this is compounded by states routinely "diverting" (plundering) patent offices's funding, in the US Congress diverts about 10% of the USPTO's collected fees to the general treasury

5. it is also compounded by the opening of whole new and novel patent fields ("business method" patents) which generate even faster growth than the historical patent fields and are the source of much of the bullshit patents

that's not even considering that the existing patent system simply isn't a good fit for software, more generally the whole field of business method patents seems incredibly fucked up and created specifically to be abused (good thing europe has declined to implement it)

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backlog_of_unexamined_patent_a...

Re: Newegg vs. Patent Trolls: When We Win, You Win

#22
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Because horrendously broken patent system. 2. An examination body integral to the horrendously broken patent system. 3. See 1.

> horrendously broken patent system If the patent system were "horrendously broken" it would have been fixed long ago. It obviously serves powerful political interests horrendously well.

Yes, it serves the political interest of "I need more money"

Re: Newegg vs. Patent Trolls: When We Win, You Win

#23
post #5

No patent for ideas in Europe, problem solved.

Oh, don't worry. There'll probably be a saucy agreement regulating a change in that in the disguise of a Free Trade Agreement.

Disclaimer: I have absolutely nothing against Free Trade or Free Trade Agreements. I do have a major problem when they're over-reaching and include off-topic subjects and regulations though.

Re: Newegg vs. Patent Trolls: When We Win, You Win

#25
post #14

I really appreciate Newegg's approach here -- one of the main reasons that patent trolling is so successful is that the cost of settling is smaller even than the cost of winning a suit. Newegg is performing an (expensive) community service. How should I be supporting them (other than making them my "first place to check" for electronics shopping)?

> one of the main reasons that patent trolling is so successful is that the cost of settling is smaller even than the cost of winning a suit.

Is the underlying reason for this strategy the low costs of settlement, or the extremely high costs of lawsuits? What if the value of a patent really is only a few thousand dollars?

Note that this very tactic is used by big companies to avoid licensing valid and useful patents owned by smaller entities. Licensing discussions often begin with the potential licensor saying "sue me", or these days, outright suing you first with a Declaratory Judgement. Can an individual afford to take on a large company? Trolls appear to simply be a symptom of this disparity in the market.

Re: Newegg vs. Patent Trolls: When We Win, You Win

#26
post #5

No patent for ideas in Europe, problem solved.

There are Software Patents in Europe unfortunately. Common myth is that there are no Software patents (Not saying you said that BUT many people state that there are none)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_patents_under_the_Eur...

Re: Newegg vs. Patent Trolls: When We Win, You Win

#27
Reading that the patents were about SSL and RC4, I had an evil thought. A patent troll with these patents would actually help make the Internet a safer place.

Companies that are still using those should be sued for not securing their consumers' information properly. Failing that, this would be an even better way of achieving the same thing.

Re: Newegg vs. Patent Trolls: When We Win, You Win

#28
post #10
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't help much apparently, since android is one of the largest software design 'thefts' ever, and the only thing they couldn't include was 'swipe to unlock' and the apple logo.

Don't they pay Apple and Microsoft for various patents though? The vendors that is.

Actually Android is more profitable to Microsoft than Windows Phone itself.

Re: Newegg vs. Patent Trolls: When We Win, You Win

#29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> horrendously broken patent system If the patent system were "horrendously broken" it would have been fixed long ago. It obviously serves powerful political interests horrendously well.

Yes, it serves the political interest of "I need more money"

I think this is what the poster you replied to is implying.

Re: Newegg vs. Patent Trolls: When We Win, You Win

#30
post #3

Please excuse my ignorance on this topic. - Why is this happening in the first place? - Who is this entity that grants a loose patent? - Why isn't this entity being interrogated ?

> Why is this happening in the first place? Because US patent laws and practices allow for it > Who is this entity that grants a loose patent? The United States Patents and Trademark Office. > Why isn't this entity being interrogated ? Because there would be very little point. One part of the issue is patent laws themselves, the other part is that the USPTO is taken to task for both overly lengthy examinations[0] and…

> 1. they are judged pretty much solely on the number of patents examined and their responsiveness

AFAIK, it's more about responsiveness rather than number of patents. Examiners are judged on how many responses ("Office Actions") they file, whether allowing or rejecting a patent. Since a patent can keep coming back for examination after every rejection, they typically generate more responses than patents.

> 2. patent offices are funded through maintenance fees...

Actually, while maintenance fees are the largest portion of revenues, they are also funded by examination and issuance fees: http://www.uspto.gov/about/stratplan/ar/USPTOFY2014PAR.pdf

They get paid an examination fee every time 1) someone files a patent application and 2) someone requests for further prosecution after they get a "final" rejection.

You could also argue that this creates a perverse incentive to keep rejecting patents, especially as issuing rejections can also be easy for an examiner. They are supposed to attack every element of the claim and prove it is covered by specific sections of prior art, but I've seen responses where they literally dismiss entire claims with some vague prior art references. And there is really nothing an applicant can do about such behavior other than suck it up and pay for continued examination.

> the existing patent system simply isn't a good fit for software...

I'd say that's not true anymore. There was period where patent offices suddenly had to start accepting software-based patents and didn't know how to deal with them, resulting in poor quality patents. Things are lot tighter now.

Also, I wouldn't conflate "business method" patents with "software" patents. In fact, there is no such thing as "software" patents. There are only patents on solutions to problems that happen to be best solved with software. Business methods are just one such area of problems (which I'd agree are not amenable to patenting).

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