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Stop pushing the web forward

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Re: Stop pushing the web forward

#281

Post by grumblestumble »

rimantas wrote: post #160
dasil003 wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The web is an anomaly yes, but it has broader reach than any other platform in the history of mankind. Thinking that native apps will kill the web is to miss the forest for the trees. None of these proprietary platforms have the reach of the web. No computing device maker can release a credible device without web support. It doesn't matter how much money you have, you can't make your proprietary platform cross the ch…

The web ten years ago was indeed different when clean markup, separation of concerns, accessibility meant something. Nowadays it is just a mess, cannon fodder in the battle nobody asked for.

Yes, I totally miss the good ole' days of bitching about IE getting the CSS box model wrong, despite the fact that it was the better implementation and as soon as the standards gods deigned to bless us with 'border-box' everyone kind of pretended those threads on css-discuss never happened... Or endless bickering over the best unit to declare font-size in, because of course it made absolute sense to leave accessibility to site designers, not browser implementations... Or posturing over why 'float' was actually a valid layout concept for anything besides a block of paragraphs with images interspersed... Or the endless clearfix or image replacement hacks... Ahh yeah, the good ole' days...

Re: Stop pushing the web forward

#282

Post by grgbrn »

bcheung wrote: post #248

If you can't keep up then don't. Some of us have ideas we've been wanting to implement and are just waiting until a browser feature becomes available and widespread enough that it is a possibility. I don't want to have to develop for the web and an Android app. I don't want to have to develop for the web and an iOS app. I don't want to have to develop for the web and a .NET app. I don't want to pay 30% to a company j…

I'm not sure how you square "If you can't keep up then don't" with what sounds (to me) a lot like "I have an idea that I want to implement, but only if I don't have to learn anything new"

To try to be at least somewhat constructive:

I took PPK's argument as: "Trying to cram everything and the kitchen sink into your browser so that you don't have to ever write native code may be appealing, but it risks collapsing under it's own weight."

Which, to me, doesn't seem so ludicrous that it deserves to be shouted down.

Re: Stop pushing the web forward

#283

Post by marssaxman »

immibis wrote: post #268
marssaxman wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really don't want them to "own the experience." I want their brochures to stay nicely sandboxed in a browser where they don't invade my computer and try to tell me what I can do with it.

Brochures are documents, nobody has a problem with putting documents on the web. Also, mobile apps are sandboxed already on all major platforms.

Right, I meant it as something of an insult. I'm fine with documents on the web. I'm fine with interactive documents on the web. I'm not fine with "web apps" that try to jump out of the browser, opening windows, redefining control-key sequences, breaking bookmarks, "open in new tab", and the back button, and otherwise interfering with my ability to control my own experience on the web.

Re: Stop pushing the web forward

#284

Post by gnaritas »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #114
bjt wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the part that feels the most misguided to me: > a fundamental conversation about where we want to push the web forward to. There's no such thing as a "conversation" between the billions of people with a stake in this. Or even the few million people building websites and web apps. Or even the few thousand people building web browsers. Attempting to have that conversation just means open-ended delay. There will…

But people are conversing about it in browser dev groups and in standards meetings (WAI, WHATWG and whatever) and such; they're just doing it with a focus to their own ends rather than the ends of the more general user population of the web.

As it should be, those who do the work get to make the decisions, that's how it works. People work for their own self interest, not for the benefit of the "general user population".

Re: Stop pushing the web forward

#285

Post by morenoh149 »

kbenson wrote: post #186
sanderjd wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honest question: is abusing canvas really becoming prevalent? The only web app I've seen doing this is flipboard.

Prevalent? I don't know. I do think it's just a matter of time before some companies leverage this by providing a super simple web page developer tool a la Frontpage Extensions. Photography studio webpage that just wants a carousel and music playing? Check. Small companies that freak out about people stealing their inventory list? Check. Vendor lock in for the poor souls that fall for this? CHECK .

yeah I don't think that would be crawlable and we want seo

Re: Stop pushing the web forward

#286

Post by kuschku »

tracker1 wrote: post #203
kuschku wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look at Google Chrome. You can’t even use any or that looks natively in Chrome – it’s just as native as the old Swing styles.

Given that every other version of applications/oses changes the definition of what "native" looks like... I don't know that it's a huge problem... Beyond that is the fact that Swing was fugly everywhere, and bootstrap looks decent everywhere.

Well, JavaFX’ styles look beautiful everywhere, too. (And it even uses decent XML and JS for styling and interaction).

I just argued against the parent poster, who said Java was different than browsers, because you could not make native UI.

Which you actually can very easily.

Re: Stop pushing the web forward

#287

Post by pbhjpbhj »

gnaritas wrote: post #284
pbhjpbhj wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But people are conversing about it in browser dev groups and in standards meetings (WAI, WHATWG and whatever) and such; they're just doing it with a focus to their own ends rather than the ends of the more general user population of the web.

As it should be, those who do the work get to make the decisions, that's how it works. People work for their own self interest, not for the benefit of the "general user population".

>People work for their own self interest //

Altruism; not exclusively, not always, not all people work only for their own benefit.

Many, I warrant, consider that something as game-changing and all pervading as the web (and internet in general) should be tailored as much as we're able to the greater good of all people. Others want to make it illegal to collect rain for drinking in drought zones so they can get a better financial profit selling bottled water. And there's a whole scale in-between of course.

Re: Stop pushing the web forward

#288

Post by notNow »

jay_kyburz wrote: post #261

I didn't see this discussed below, but I think when PPK says web’s strengths: simplicity, URLs and reach. I think he misses an important feature for me, as a user: Security. I just don't trust native apps. Even a non-malicious app can undermine your systems performance and behave badly. I've spent too many hours trying to "clean" windows systems, there is just no way I want to be installing native apps on them any mo…

The web browser itself is a native app. so why do you think it's ok not to trust native apps (not to discredit your reasonable concern) but it's alright to go ahead with web browsers?

Re: Stop pushing the web forward

#289

Post by jeena »

rpedela wrote: post #200
jeena wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the only languages available are HTML, CSS and JavaScript which are just more than bad for application development because of so many reasons. I would rather see something like Ubuntu Touch tries where they write the frontend with QML and you can have backends in C++ for speed.

> But the only languages available are HTML, CSS and JavaScript which are just more than bad for application development because of so many reasons. I would have completely agreed with that a few months ago. HTML/CSS/JS is fine for most websites which are primarily text, images, and a couple buttons. But it breaks down quickly when trying to build an application. Then React was invented. I don't know if React will be…

But that is just fiddeling with the symptoms, not doing anything with the root of the problem. It is the same with webcomponents, they're building on such a shaky ground.

I like the ideas around https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UTWAEJlhww instead.

Re: Stop pushing the web forward

#290

Post by notNow »

grgbrn wrote: post #282
bcheung wrote: post #248

If you can't keep up then don't. Some of us have ideas we've been wanting to implement and are just waiting until a browser feature becomes available and widespread enough that it is a possibility. I don't want to have to develop for the web and an Android app. I don't want to have to develop for the web and an iOS app. I don't want to have to develop for the web and a .NET app. I don't want to pay 30% to a company j…

I'm not sure how you square "If you can't keep up then don't" with what sounds (to me) a lot like "I have an idea that I want to implement, but only if I don't have to learn anything new" To try to be at least somewhat constructive: I took PPK's argument as: "Trying to cram everything and the kitchen sink into your browser so that you don't have to ever write native code may be appealing, but it risks collapsing unde…

The guy is clearly over the hill and his old glory is over. He made a bet to chase and document every silly and ridiculous quirks in legacy browsers and established a name in this 'field' during the Great Web Depression 2000 - 2005 now that these days are gone and no one is interested to listen to what IE6 or Microsoft dictates on the community and we're living in a true Renaissance and booming expansion, his desperation and frustration with losing bets and falling behind his peers are showing but his phone outrage and indignation are not fooling anyone.

He was asking for it by shunning modern and progress in web development and instead endorsing everything that's reactionary and antiquated in the field and his latest outcry hopefully the last would be just a blip on the radar and we would be moving forward nevertheless.

You reap what you sow

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