Live data from Hacker News

3D Xpoint memory: Faster-than-flash storage unveiled

bbc.com

61–70 of 99 posts

Re: 3D Xpoint memory: Faster-than-flash storage unveiled

#61
post #42

I did research in the field from 2008 to 2013. The claims are always the same: faster than flash, denser than dram, lower power than both. Here's how to spot BS: first, the density claims are immaterial until they prove yield at a technology node same as dram's today. There are multiple billions investment between 180nm and high yield (and low mask count) 2xnm, no matter how cool is the new memory technology. Second,…

Actually you should be taking the claims very seriously. This has been an area Micron has been researching for decades. They've had a patent on the memory cell for about 11 years now (US6777705). Phase change memory has for a very long time been one of those just over the horizon technologies, but Micron has perfected it well enough to compete with NAND and partnered with Intel to bring it to market. This isn't somet…

There are many ways of suggesting that a technology is ready when it's not. I have not seen anything published with 2x nm and a cell size that is anywhere near 4F2 to 8F2 (on a decently large array)...

Re the latency caveat I was suggesting BS spotting rules. You're right that this article did not claim the memory was faster than dram.

RE power consumption, it's true that it you don't use it an NVM will not consume power, yet that is not what people refer to when talking about power consumption. Can you quote a technology paper that shows lower than dram, or lower than flash for that matters, active power consumption? (The proper unit is W/GBps here)

Re: 3D Xpoint memory: Faster-than-flash storage unveiled

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually you should be taking the claims very seriously. This has been an area Micron has been researching for decades. They've had a patent on the memory cell for about 11 years now (US6777705). Phase change memory has for a very long time been one of those just over the horizon technologies, but Micron has perfected it well enough to compete with NAND and partnered with Intel to bring it to market. This isn't somet…

Forward looking article from June with tons of analysis http://seekingalpha.com/article/3253655-intel-and-micron-the...

No, apparently it's not PCM.

>While they did not specifically state it, it looks to be phase change memory (edit at the Q&A Intel stated this is not Phase Change).

Source: http://www.pcper.com/news/Storage/Breaking-Intel-and-Micron-...

Re: 3D Xpoint memory: Faster-than-flash storage unveiled

#63
post #60
post #53

Dear Micron, brace for a mother of all patent lawsuits from HP.

> Dear Micron, brace for a mother of all patent lawsuits from HP. Ignore this person. They don't know what they are talking about. This is phase-change memory. It's been on everyone's radar for the last decade. HP is pushing their titanium oxide memristors. That's a completely different technology.

No, apparently it's not PCM.

>While they did not specifically state it, it looks to be phase change memory (edit at the Q&A Intel stated this is not Phase Change).

Source: http://www.pcper.com/news/Storage/Breaking-Intel-and-Micron-...

Re: 3D Xpoint memory: Faster-than-flash storage unveiled

#64
post #12

A guess: this uses memristors(i.e. rram). crossbar is a startup in the field, their site gives plenty of details about the tech. http://www.crossbar-inc.com/

No, this is not memristors (unless you consider PCM to be a memristor) and it has no relation to crossbar-inc.com. This is phase change memory. https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Amicron.com+%22cross-p...

No, apparently it's not PCM.

>While they did not specifically state it, it looks to be phase change memory (edit at the Q&A Intel stated this is not Phase Change).

Source: http://www.pcper.com/news/Storage/Breaking-Intel-and-Micron-...

Re: 3D Xpoint memory: Faster-than-flash storage unveiled

#65
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> dram latency does not depend on the memory technology, rather it depends on the array size Wait, what? You mean they are making us wait 10ns for row open and 10ns for row close just for shits and giggles? Or did you mean to say "bandwidth"? I'm confused (genuinely, not sarcastically).

Not shits and giggles, it's access to the array: subarray and word line decoding plus sense amp time. Find me a technology that does not need all these and I'll bow to you (and invest in your startup :D).

SRAM?

I'm only half kidding. As a complete industry outsider it doesn't seem ridiculous to think that SRAM could do to DRAM what SSDs did to HDDs. Alas, I have no idea what the economics + trends are and I never did more than dabble in semiconductor engineering/physics so I will only ever find out after the fact.

Re: 3D Xpoint memory: Faster-than-flash storage unveiled

#66
post #42

I did research in the field from 2008 to 2013. The claims are always the same: faster than flash, denser than dram, lower power than both. Here's how to spot BS: first, the density claims are immaterial until they prove yield at a technology node same as dram's today. There are multiple billions investment between 180nm and high yield (and low mask count) 2xnm, no matter how cool is the new memory technology. Second,…

Actually you should be taking the claims very seriously. This has been an area Micron has been researching for decades. They've had a patent on the memory cell for about 11 years now (US6777705). Phase change memory has for a very long time been one of those just over the horizon technologies, but Micron has perfected it well enough to compete with NAND and partnered with Intel to bring it to market. This isn't somet…

If this is PCM have they "perfected" it to the point that it won't wipe itself if it goes over 100 degrees C?

Re: 3D Xpoint memory: Faster-than-flash storage unveiled

#67

Always the same thing. >1000X faster, 1000X cheaper! Then "No, you can't buy one right now, but you will be able to do it "soon". And, no it won't actually be 1000X faster neither 1000X cheaper because blah blah blah..."

On the infographic the subtext of "1000x faster" is "up to 100s of times faster than NAND" Then it mentions 10x more performance with a PCIe/NVMe interface. Still all good things, but 1000x is probably more marketing than reality. Source: http://www.intelsalestraining.com/infographics/memory/3DXPoi...

My guess is that 10x indicates that they've saturated the bandwidth of the PCIe interface.

Re: 3D Xpoint memory: Faster-than-flash storage unveiled

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forward looking article from June with tons of analysis http://seekingalpha.com/article/3253655-intel-and-micron-the...

No, apparently it's not PCM. >While they did not specifically state it, it looks to be phase change memory ( edit at the Q&A Intel stated this is not Phase Change). Source: http://www.pcper.com/news/Storage/Breaking-Intel-and-Micron-...

The response in question has a lot of ah, uh's, and stutters:

"Relative to phase change, which has been in the market place before and which micron itself has some experience with in the past again this is a very different architecture in terms of the place it fills in the memory hierarchy because it has these dramatic improvements in speed and volatility and performance"

They didn't say that it wasn't PCM, and they didn't say that the technology was different. They said that the architecture was different than the PCM that Micron produced before. Which would be the cross-point organization and the all important selector element. They mention that the cell works my a "property change of the material", or a "bulk material property change".

Go look up Micron's recent patents and applications. This is PCM.

I do find it very interesting that they are bending over backwards not to call out the memory technology and specifically answering a question directly regarding if it is actually PCM.

Re: 3D Xpoint memory: Faster-than-flash storage unveiled

#70

Always the same thing. >1000X faster, 1000X cheaper! Then "No, you can't buy one right now, but you will be able to do it "soon". And, no it won't actually be 1000X faster neither 1000X cheaper because blah blah blah..."

Where did you read "1000x cheaper"? And they say comparing to SSD and HDD it will not be cheaper but faster and comparing to RAM it will be cheaper but not faster.
Post reply on HN