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Stop pushing the web forward

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Re: Stop pushing the web forward

#131

Post by cromwellian »

I think PPK is missing the point being "features" being added, and rationalizing the design of the old Web APIs by making them a proper layered stack of primitives. Much of the work being added to the browser recently obviates the need for "high level" opaque features to be added, and instead exposes enough low level primitives that these can be implemented by developers in libraries.

If you get a good set of low level primitives exposed that are freely composeable, then you can stop adding "features", and let third parties develop those features.

The Web is missing lots of features for mobile that are being added today which simply cannot be replicated by freezing features and using IE6 era hacks. These are features that are needed not to emulate native apps but to make the end user experience of the Web better for end users.

For example, ServiceWorker replaces the terribly designed Application Cache, and enables better caching logic, offline use, and push message delivery. If you're building a mobile site app for say, users in developing countries with very restricted data plans, than using ServiceWorker to control and preinstall cached resources, incrementally update those resources, possibly just by receiving a push notification, and allowing users to browse the site without even spinning up the cellular radio, that will be a huge boon to both the economics of the app in those regions, but battery life too.

These rants don't come with any context of what the alternative is. The vast majority of human beings are now online via mobile as their only mechanism for content. The Web wasn't designed for mobile. It needs updating, and simply thinking we can return to the vision of XHTML Mobile/Mobile CSS circa 2004 era is not going to convince anyone. Either it will encourage Facebook Instant style destruction of the Web, with more and more content moved into proprietary silos, or you'll see something like Flash come back.

Remember, we finally disposed of Flash by upgrading the Web to the point where it wasn't needed anymore.

We don't want a similar situation to occur for the mobile web.

Re: Stop pushing the web forward

#132

Post by vezzy-fnord »

dasil003 wrote: post #129
benmathes wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From a tech standpoint, yes. There are some pretty powerful interests that don't want to see the open web on mobile. Google and Apple get handsome cuts of all the revenue on their semi-closed platforms. Consumer demand may shift that, but I'm not holding my breath. The open web was an historical anomaly: historically the large information infrastructures have been nearly monopolized (telegraph, phone lines, cable/bro…

The web is an anomaly yes, but it has broader reach than any other platform in the history of mankind. Thinking that native apps will kill the web is to miss the forest for the trees. None of these proprietary platforms have the reach of the web. No computing device maker can release a credible device without web support. It doesn't matter how much money you have, you can't make your proprietary platform cross the ch…

the web is something else completely different, which we've never seen before, and mark my words, it will not disappear or be superseded anytime soon

Smalltalk environments?

That's the gist of it. The web is a file server protocol with a pseudo-Smalltalk coating.

We've seen hypertext systems in general many times before the web.

Re: Stop pushing the web forward

#133

Post by k__ »

We went from the stagnation to fast-forward.

I hated the old days because nothing seemed to change.

The browsers had slowed innovation because of IE and PHP didn't seem to try much new things (besides the OOP additions) for a long time.

But it was easy money. I learned PHP, HTML and CSS and was set for about 10 years with subtle changes.

Since 2013 I went from ExtJS, to Ember, to React on the client and from PHP to Node with Express and then Koa on the server.

It got a bit more exiting, with all the new features and a much faster development pace, but I went from old, never fixed bugs to new unstable libraries. So the rage stayed the same, hehe.

Re: Stop pushing the web forward

#134

Post by wging »

apalmer wrote: post #57
bhousel wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What JavaScript needs much more IMO is a (better) stdlib, with more datatypes and procedures than currently available (including big numbers, the various flavours of trees, etc). Isn't that "pushing JavaScript forward?"

Agreed. However I think to build on his argument, we should push JavaScript forward in a targeted fashion, based on its intended purpose. Level 1: There are known huge missing chunks of JavaScript that should be resolved as they severely limit the power of javascript as a development platform which lives in a network application. For instance modules, promises, etc... Level 2: There are known huge missing functionali…

This is being done! Level 3 is being done, but level 2 is not being skipped.

Modules: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Refe...

Promises: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Refe...

Data structures: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Refe...

Obervable mechanism: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Refe...

Re: Stop pushing the web forward

#135

Post by w0und »

I couldn't agree more, we need stop and take a break. Enjoy the stuff we have now and fix what is not working correctly. Adding more features just adds more bugs and exploits, if you have been paying any attention to the web lately you would notice that the a lot of the bugs popping up are 10+ years old.

Re: Stop pushing the web forward

#137

Post by romaniv »

jscottmiller wrote: post #102

> Instead, we should focus on the web’s strengths: simplicity, URLs and reach. How does new browser feature X prevent a developer from doing any of these things? > Being forced to work around IE6’s issues required quite a bit of creativity, and although not every solution stood the test of time (most libraries and frameworks from that era, for instance), it still made the creative juices flow. 'Tools' are bad except…

For example, a lot of the problems that could be easily solved via declarative HTML tags are being solved via low-level JavaScript APIs.

Not to mention that the web sets its own expectations. If everyone uses stupid modal popups, your clients will expect you to use stupid modal popups.

Re: Stop pushing the web forward

#138

Post by romaniv »

agentultra wrote: post #44

The cool thing about many of these features is that I can push out some code that I can share with a hyperlink and other people can run it without installing anything other than a browser. The authoring experience is still terrible. And the user experience still requires hopping over the secret, invisible wall into developer-tools land... but the potential is there. If you're savvy enough to open your web console and…

The cool thing about many of these features is that I can push out some code that I can share with a hyperlink and other people can run it without installing anything other than a browser.

What you describe is a hack for lacking isolation/security/permissions/package management in the operating system. Seriously, if there was a sensible way of isolating apps and handling dependencies, it would be perfectly sensible to implement a lot of the current web "apps" as real applications.

Re: Stop pushing the web forward

#139

Post by [deleted] »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #99
rgbrenner wrote: post #21

We need a break. We need an opportunity to learn to the features we already have responsibly — without tools! Also, we need the time for a fundamental conversation about where we want to push the web forward to. How about this.. YOU take a break. Stop trying to keep up with every little new thing that comes out. Wait a while. And you'll get exactly what you want. The tools that it turns out were a bad idea will die.…

Do you know PPK and his work? He's been at the cutting edge of web-standards and implementations for at least 12 years if my memory serves me correctly. >And you'll get exactly what you want. // If he wants to avoid the web being badly negatively effected by short term views of current browser companies and standards bodies then he won't get what he wants by sticking his head in the sand and ignoring the direction he…

[deleted]

Re: Stop pushing the web forward

#140

Post by dasil003 »

vezzy-fnord wrote: post #132
dasil003 wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The web is an anomaly yes, but it has broader reach than any other platform in the history of mankind. Thinking that native apps will kill the web is to miss the forest for the trees. None of these proprietary platforms have the reach of the web. No computing device maker can release a credible device without web support. It doesn't matter how much money you have, you can't make your proprietary platform cross the ch…

the web is something else completely different, which we've never seen before, and mark my words, it will not disappear or be superseded anytime soon Smalltalk environments? That's the gist of it. The web is a file server protocol with a pseudo-Smalltalk coating. We've seen hypertext systems in general many times before the web.

None that crossed the chasm. That's what makes the web special and unique, not the functionality.
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